Without French Revolution, would mediatisation occur?

[Nanwe]

OTL, Napoleon decided that, after the abolition of the HRE, in order to compensate the German prices that had lost territories west of the Rhine should be compensated by abolishing the various independent religious states as well as by merging the hundreds of polities within the HRE into a more manageable number of states. Now, let's say that there is no French Revolution and hence no Napoleonic Wars, would it be possible that a similar process of merging and secularisation of territories (mediatisation) could occur in a more organic manner within a surviving (if essentially powerless) HRE? In that case, who would be the beneficiaries of this different division since OTL the Habsburgs were screwed over?

Assuming that is, that France retains its easternmost borders from 1789.

 

[Nanwe]

bumping for some attention.

 

[Faeelin]

It depends on a lot of things!

 

[Ryan]

I read the title as: Without French Revolution, would masturbation occur?

 

[Beaugastly]

I read the title as: Without French Revolution, would masturbation occur?

Since that would be an ancien régime-wank, it would.

Honestly, I think it would though. Either because of a breakup of the HRE due to increasing tension between Prussia and Austria (and other?), or due to consilidation into a true nation-state (in which case imperial immediacy would simply be a matter of how federal states were arranged).

 

[Emperor Constantine]

OTL, Napoleon decided that, after the abolition of the HRE, in order to compensate the German prices that had lost territories west of the Rhine should be compensated by abolishing the various independent religious states as well as by merging the hundreds of polities within the HRE into a more manageable number of states. Now, let's say that there is no French Revolution and hence no Napoleonic Wars, would it be possible that a similar process of merging and secularisation of territories (mediatisation) could occur in a more organic manner within a surviving (if essentially powerless) HRE? In that case, who would be the beneficiaries of this different division since OTL the Habsburgs were screwed over?

Assuming that is, that France retains its easternmost borders from 1789.

Its difficult to say really. The Holy Roman Empire had been decaying for about 150 years by the French Revolution, but its institutions had basically survived up till that point. Without external intervention the HRE could limp on for decades, maybe even longer. Without some kind of stimuli wide-spread mediatization wouldn't occur. However, if you get a reforming Emperor on the throne things could be different. In the last decades of the 18th century German nationalism had began to develop, so if you have an Emperor and the powerful states of the HRE decide to use that nationalism, you could get many of the various states mediatized.

As for the Ecclesiastical states, I think more of them would survive. The three Electorates and Munster for example, but the smaller ones would still suffer the same fate.

Finally, as to the beneficiaries of such policies, it depends. If its led by the Habsburgs I can see them grabbing key, strategic lands within the Empire. If its led by a different party, like Prussia, Saxony or Bavaria, then the Habsburgs would have few benefits.

 

[Nanwe]

It depends on a lot of things!

Probably, such is the case for everything in life. I am asking mostly because it seems like an interesting idea but about which I honestly have no idea about.

Its difficult to say really. The Holy Roman Empire had been decaying for about 150 years by the French Revolution, but its institutions had basically survived up till that point. Without external intervention the HRE could limp on for decades, maybe even longer. Without some kind of stimuli wide-spread mediatization wouldn't occur. However, if you get a reforming Emperor on the throne things could be different. In the last decades of the 18th century German nationalism had began to develop, so if you have an Emperor and the powerful states of the HRE decide to use that nationalism, you could get many of the various states mediatized.

As for the Ecclesiastical states, I think more of them would survive. The three Electorates and Munster for example, but the smaller ones would still suffer the same fate.

Finally, as to the beneficiaries of such policies, it depends. If its led by the Habsburgs I can see them grabbing key, strategic lands within the Empire. If its led by a different party, like Prussia, Saxony or Bavaria, then the Habsburgs would have few benefits.

Thanks! I do wonder what this nationalism might look like, since German nationalism (like Italian or Spanish) was essentially marked by the Napoleonic Wars experience. Could for instance, a French invasion propel such kind of change, not necessarily successful, as to force the states to increase their size and reduce the number within the HRE? After all it was a long-standing policy of the French even before the Revolution to extend up to the Rhine as a "natural border".

 

[Westphalian]

During the 18th century there were a lot of intellectual proposals how the HRE should be reformed and made more efficient. Completely abolishing it was a rather rare concept, but eg making all territories part a new circles led by one elector each was one of these ideas.

IOW, radically reducing the number of imperial subjects by making them electoral subjects (ie moving them from immediate subjects of the emperor to mediate ones) was a rather common proposal (of political flyers, pamphlets and monographs, not of political initiatives).

The earliest 18th incarnation of the idea of secularization I have found comes from the court of the Wittelsbach emperor Charles VII: This proposal suggests combining all the temporal territories of the archbishoprics, bishoprics and abbacies into large directly imperial territories centered on the Rhine, Westphalia and Franconia.

(In this map, you have to ignore the northeastern areas of Magdeburg and Halberstadt, which are parts of Brandenburg-Prussia.)

 

[profxyz]

I think a very headstrong Emperor/Empress could push HRE territorial mergers through, but it would be very dangerous territory for Austria to wander into, since such reform could open a very bad precedent in terms of state integrity and ruler legitimacy, both of which Austria was critically dependent on. It would also give Prussia a chance to pose as 'defender of the lesser German states' against Austria.

 

[Emperor Constantine]

During the 18th century there were a lot of intellectual proposals how the HRE should be reformed and made more efficient. Completely abolishing it was a rather rare concept, but eg making all territories part a new circles led by one elector each was one of these ideas.

IOW, radically reducing the number of imperial subjects by making them electoral subjects (ie moving them from immediate subjects of the emperor to mediate ones) was a rather common proposal (of political flyers, pamphlets and monographs, not of political initiatives).

The earliest 18th incarnation of the idea of secularization I have found comes from the court of the Wittelsbach emperor Charles VII: This proposal suggests combining all the temporal territories of the archbishoprics, bishoprics and abbacies into large directly imperial territories centered on the Rhine, Westphalia and Franconia.

(In this map, you have to ignore the northeastern areas of Magdeburg and Halberstadt, which are parts of Brandenburg-Prussia.)

The real problem with a wide-ranging mediatization, in my opinion, is lack of interest among the Habsburgs and Electors. Sure you'd get maybe one or two, but if without a majority of the Empire's larger states in support, you'd go no ware fast.

In a way it would have almost been better for the HRE if Bavaria had at least partially won the Austrian Succession war. The idea of creating large sections of Imperial lands would be a major step in centralizing or federalizing the Empire.

 

[Benevolence]

Another I don't think being brought up is opposition from within the empire itself. Regardless of who is emperor, wouldn't it be seen as an assault on the German liberties of the princes of the empire. Usually whenever the emperor attempted anything remotely close to some form of centralisaton it was opposed forthwith and there are several powers (looking at you France) that'd be elated to disrupt it on behalf of defending the German liberties.

 

[Clandango]

Might the Pope find due compensation financially? I imagine one of them might get tired with how the Saxon, Austrian, and Bavarian royals kept the right to appoint Prince-Bishops. Perhaps something could be done with various economic activities being kept as income for church administrators, but the administration of the land was secularized? Or perhaps parts of Italy are added to the Papal States and their rulers get crowns in the north. Or perhaps they make it so that single people can't be multiple Prince-Bishops. Maybe even eventually get some Catholic revolutionary activity going and group the smaller church lands and states into alliances against the decadent and pro-Protestents royals.

 

[Alt History Buff]

Basically, someone like a Prussia or a France would have to conquer the place, not too dissimilar to Bonaparte.

Perhaps an alliance of France and Prussia against Austria. It is difficult to imagine a Habsburg HRE announcing the end of the Empire and conquering it directly.

Maybe, Germany might eventually unite voluntarily into a Swiss-type confederation, though the greater size of Germany as a whole and the fact that there are substancial Duchies (Bavaria) would tend to stand against this idea.