William will always be a bastard...
- Thread starter Zirantun
- Start date
By the way, I meant to write an instead of the, I know there was more than one. You could see either become the "Patriarch of the north" (I know unlikely but I gotta indulge my orthodoxophilia somehow). Although since the Archbishop of York was technically inferior to the archbishop of Canterbury at the time I could see canterbury getting it being more likely.
ingemann
Banned
I could see the Archbishop of Canterbury being raised to Patriarch of the British Isles, but I think the English will only do it, if they can get the support and accept of the German clergy and Emperor (to ensure that the Pope don't have the support to deal with them).
But he won't be equal with the Pope or the Patriarch of Constantinoble, there was a hierarchy among the patriarchies, and while there was disagreement whether the Pope or the Byzantine Patriarch was in the top, the English one would clearly be lower down. It doesn't mean that the Pope can overrule the British Patriarch, just as the Emperor couldn't overrule the king of France, but the Papal position will seen as the more prestigeous one.
Archbishop Valdemar of Bremen a illegigime son of Canute V of Denmark tried to set up Bremen as the Patriarchy of the North, so the idea was out there.
But they won't set up the new Patriarchy up to be "of the North" as it would alienate the German clergy and really anger the Danes and other Norse, making England risk a new Danish invasion this time with the Catholic Church full economic support.
If the English are smart they will support the German to set up Patriarchies on the mainland too. Bremen would be obvious to take up "of the North" (Saxony, Thuringia and Scandinavia), Cologne could be set up as Patriarchy of Franconia, Salzburg as Bavaria and Strassbourg as Swabia.
ingemann
Banned
I fvind your beginning really interesting and have a few comments. The religious one I have mentioned.
I find the potential german intervention into France really interesting. There are few way it can go. France are still a relative new state as such we could see German Emperor try to recreate the old Frankish Empire by becoming French king.
Another alternative could be that the Emperor just took over the vassalage of some of the Rebellious fiefs (and maybe a lttle more). Bretagne, Normandy and Flandern could become German fiefs. But if they first begin on that, the the French part of Burgundy may be reabsorbed into the the Kingdom of Burgundy/Arles.
The third alternative is to set up Bretagne, Normandy and Flandern as new Kingdom (The kingdom of Nord or Neustria) under one of their rulers.
I'd say the second option would be the most likely. For the Emperor to become King of France would require more than simply subduing the northern fiefdoms - he'd have to defeat the French king. It would be much easier to use the King of France as a foil, offering the northern duchies and counties protection from French aggression in exchange for their oath to the empire. The northern fiefdoms were virtually independent at this point anyway, and they might not care too much if their nominal allegiance were to the emperor rather than the king. Imperial control over the whole of France would be a longer-term project.
Re-creating Neustria would potentially be a problem because none of the dukes and counts would want any of the others to be king, and there would be constant rebellions. Although I wonder if the Bretons would try to re-establish the Kingdom of Brittany - at that point it hadn't been a duchy for that long.
If the empire does eventually absorb France - maybe that would be TTL's equivalent of the Hundred Years' War - it would be interesting to see how a much larger patchwork of fiefdoms and electors plays out, not to mention how the quasi-republican cities of southern France would fit in. This is a fascinating period that I wish I knew more about.
Zirantun
Banned
At the time in the OTL (I assume that stands for "original timeline"; I still don't know what IITL or whatever means) the Danes were trying to separate themselves from Bremen. I should have my files now so I'll be able to update you guys with the next bit today or tomorrow.
As far as English support of the German anti-pope, the German anti-pope, Rufinus, agrees with Alexander II in that Harold Godwinson is to be excommunicated. The dividing issue here is Normandy. Alexander probably could've swept the whole thing under the rug if he hadn't opened his big mouth, but because he did, and England burned Normandy, he looked like a fool at a very fragile time in the Church's history. So, you have Alexander II, who supports the French in their war to reclaim Normandy so that the FitzGuilliol (FitzWilliam) boys will be forgotten, and you have Ursinus II, who supports Norman and Breton sovereignty from France and the FitzGuilliol claim. England is outside of God's grace on either side of the isle, so to speak, so no matter who wins, they'll still be expected to recall the Witan and come up with another king because the pope said so... which after reading about the English archbishops at the time, I doubt would go over very well with them (specifically the Archbishop Stigand of Canterbury).
As far as English support of the German anti-pope, the German anti-pope, Rufinus, agrees with Alexander II in that Harold Godwinson is to be excommunicated. The dividing issue here is Normandy. Alexander probably could've swept the whole thing under the rug if he hadn't opened his big mouth, but because he did, and England burned Normandy, he looked like a fool at a very fragile time in the Church's history. So, you have Alexander II, who supports the French in their war to reclaim Normandy so that the FitzGuilliol (FitzWilliam) boys will be forgotten, and you have Ursinus II, who supports Norman and Breton sovereignty from France and the FitzGuilliol claim. England is outside of God's grace on either side of the isle, so to speak, so no matter who wins, they'll still be expected to recall the Witan and come up with another king because the pope said so... which after reading about the English archbishops at the time, I doubt would go over very well with them (specifically the Archbishop Stigand of Canterbury).
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ingemann
Banned
But that do indeed give the German anti-Pope some cheap bribes. Denmark can get it own Archbishopric (likely Roskilde rather than Lund at this point in time) with overlordship of the Swedish and Norwegian Churches, while Bremen can be raised to a Patriarchy as reparation for losing Scandinavia.
Zirantun
Banned
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The Upcoming War
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Now, remember William of Aquitaine's agreement with the French king? This decision that France was an agent of the devil incarnate, Pope Alexander II, placed him in a rather awkward position. Betray France and his people for the continuation of German control over the Church, or, fight the Holy Roman Empire itself? Did he have the balls? Yes he did. But did he have the means? A longstanding problem in France is that they don't like Germans, and this was just as true at the time as it is today. The two countries have been historically divided since the break up of the Carolingian Empire, and that sentiment wasn't about to change now. If William were to betray the French king, then he risked losing the support of his people, who believed in Alexander II as the one true pope. If he didn't betray the French king, he risked losing all of his ambitions as an overlord of France. If he stood with France, that meant he no longer had the ear of the Emperor to bully King Philip with, and his daughter certainly wouldn't be looking for Italian suitors. NOT while Italy remained under German control. He could find her a suitor in Spain to be sure, but the Spanish were busy trying to survive with half of Spain under Moorish rule, so they certainly wouldn't be coming to his aid if he needed them. In the end, William's sense of principle won out. He had already made a commitment to the French king, and while he really didn't care who was pope, his people did. Of course his decision shocked young Heinrich. William was his uncle, and he had been planning on a short war with a divided France with his support. Although France was still technically divided, with Celtic guerillas and Norman peasants in the north, a substantial portion of it was fighting under one banner – the king's banner. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] Heinrich couldn't send any troops anywhere until the following spring. There were nobles within his own country who were still loyal to the pope that had to be dealt with. And dealt with they were. But in the meantime, making preparations for war, he sent embassies to Treveur al Louarn and William FitzOsbern, with promises of restoring Brittany's status as a kingdom with Treveur as king, and making a Kingdom of Normandy, under Richard FitzWilliam, or Richard I. Bold promises, but they were well-received. He also sent embassies to Denmark, promising German support of a Danish invasion of England should Sven II Estridsen feel like reestablishing the North Sea Empire. While Sven was flattered indeed, he was interested in conquering Norway, and he had his own conditions for supporting the Germans against the pope and against France.[/FONT]
The third condition was rendered unacceptable by anti-pope Ursinus II, but the first two he agreed to. The differences between Heinrich and his mentor were unreconcilable however, and Adalbert pledged his allegiance to Pope Alexander II to the death, and die he did when he tried to mobilize troops against the Emperor in January of 1070. His execution was a big moment for the nobility of the time. It showed the Reichstag that Heinrich had goals, and that he was not a little boy to be manipulated by old advisors, no matter how close he was to them. Heinrich meant business. This wasn't a game to him anymore than it was to anyone else.
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Now, remember William of Aquitaine's agreement with the French king? This decision that France was an agent of the devil incarnate, Pope Alexander II, placed him in a rather awkward position. Betray France and his people for the continuation of German control over the Church, or, fight the Holy Roman Empire itself? Did he have the balls? Yes he did. But did he have the means? A longstanding problem in France is that they don't like Germans, and this was just as true at the time as it is today. The two countries have been historically divided since the break up of the Carolingian Empire, and that sentiment wasn't about to change now. If William were to betray the French king, then he risked losing the support of his people, who believed in Alexander II as the one true pope. If he didn't betray the French king, he risked losing all of his ambitions as an overlord of France. If he stood with France, that meant he no longer had the ear of the Emperor to bully King Philip with, and his daughter certainly wouldn't be looking for Italian suitors. NOT while Italy remained under German control. He could find her a suitor in Spain to be sure, but the Spanish were busy trying to survive with half of Spain under Moorish rule, so they certainly wouldn't be coming to his aid if he needed them. In the end, William's sense of principle won out. He had already made a commitment to the French king, and while he really didn't care who was pope, his people did. Of course his decision shocked young Heinrich. William was his uncle, and he had been planning on a short war with a divided France with his support. Although France was still technically divided, with Celtic guerillas and Norman peasants in the north, a substantial portion of it was fighting under one banner – the king's banner. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] Heinrich couldn't send any troops anywhere until the following spring. There were nobles within his own country who were still loyal to the pope that had to be dealt with. And dealt with they were. But in the meantime, making preparations for war, he sent embassies to Treveur al Louarn and William FitzOsbern, with promises of restoring Brittany's status as a kingdom with Treveur as king, and making a Kingdom of Normandy, under Richard FitzWilliam, or Richard I. Bold promises, but they were well-received. He also sent embassies to Denmark, promising German support of a Danish invasion of England should Sven II Estridsen feel like reestablishing the North Sea Empire. While Sven was flattered indeed, he was interested in conquering Norway, and he had his own conditions for supporting the Germans against the pope and against France.[/FONT]
- [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Sven wanted [/FONT]Harald Blåtand Gormsen, or Harald Blue-Tooth, the first Christian king of Denmark to be sanctified by Pope Ursinus II.
- He wanted Denmark to have its own archbishop, which would lead to the loss of lands in the Archbishopric of Hamburg, which was headed by Adalbert of Hamburg, the young Emperor's mentor.
- He wanted papal recognition of Denmark's claim to the Norwegian throne.
The third condition was rendered unacceptable by anti-pope Ursinus II, but the first two he agreed to. The differences between Heinrich and his mentor were unreconcilable however, and Adalbert pledged his allegiance to Pope Alexander II to the death, and die he did when he tried to mobilize troops against the Emperor in January of 1070. His execution was a big moment for the nobility of the time. It showed the Reichstag that Heinrich had goals, and that he was not a little boy to be manipulated by old advisors, no matter how close he was to them. Heinrich meant business. This wasn't a game to him anymore than it was to anyone else.
Zirantun
Banned
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Meanwhile, The British Isles are doing quite well...[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] Harold Godwinson might have been injured badly by Robert Cor de Lion when he sustained an ugly fall at the beginning of the Rape of Normandy, but besides a ruined shoulder, he was doing quite well. His coinage proved quite successful, and so did the development of several new trading ports by the new found Hebridean traders, including Plymouth and Bristol. These traders were trading from the Volga River to the Mediterranean Sea, bringing all sorts of goods back to England, Scotland, and Ireland that were bolstering the local economies. While France was bickering over control of her northern coast, and now facing a war of cleansing with the Holy Roman Empire and Denmark, England was getting rich. Harold's sons by Edith Swan-neck were all of marriageable age, and his two children by Edith of Mercia, Harold and Ulf, were growing, as were her children from her previous marriage, Nest, Maredudd, Idwal, and Owain, whom Harold had granted shelter in hopes to later install them as satellites in Gwynedd and Powys, and even Gwent at future dates. He had a big family, and despite the fact that Edith of Mercia hated his guts, they seemed quite functional. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] With two 21 year old twins, a 19 year old son, and a 15 year old daughter, and more kids on the way, Harold's family was ripe for political marriage. Also, given the English bishops distance from continental affairs over the past 4 years, his common law heirs as well as his heirs from his marriage to Edith of Mercia were all recognized. Nobody really cared about church standards at the moment, since the church had all but abandoned England and was at war with itself. Everyone on the continent was just as aloof from England at this point as the Church, any political marriage that Harold and his two wives could come up with would have to be local, a fact that didn't really bother Harold at all. He had a huge military advantage over the Welsh and the Scottish, and he was beginning to like England's individuality. Cementing ties to the Hebridean nobility of the time was the possibility of marrying his young daughter to Fingal Mac Gofraid U[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]í[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Í[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]mair, King of the Isles from Mann and subordinate of [/FONT]Diarmait mac Maíl na mBó, the High-King of Ireland (with opposition). Sure enough, the Uí Ímair had already sent an envoy the previous year, but so also had Máel Snechtai, King of Moray, as well as the High-King of Ireland himself (and his enemies). Everyone in the British Isles seemed to want a piece of the English pie accept the person that Harold was looking for: Máel Coluim III of Scotland. The only offer that could rival a dynastic marriage between Máel Coluim and Gunhild was one between one of the Irish High-King's sons, however unlike Máel Coluim's situation in Scotland, the opposition to Diarmait mac Maíl na mBó's High-Kingship was rather serious. While Diarmait had half the country opposing his title, Máel Coluim had secured Scotland's economic and agricultural centers, and had a good relationship with his stepsons by his recently deceased wife, Ingibjörg Finnsdóttir, who ruled jointly over the Orkney Islands which were technically still subordinate to Norwegian rule. The only serious opposition to his crown was coming out of the malnutritioned subsistance hunters/farmers of the Scottish Highlands in the Mormaerdom of Moray. So... why had he not sent an envoy to London? Didn't he want to partake in the fun? Actually, no, he didn't. Máel Coluim was a devout catholic and very loyal to Alexander II as pope and therefore very distraught over the events of the past 4 years. When the pope gave William the Bastard a papal banner, although he didn't say it publicly, he supported the pope's decision. Unlike the other kings in the British Isles, he didn't much care for England's riches, as he was getting his own already from the Hebrideans, and he thought of Harold Godwinson as a vile, murdering, pillaging savage.
Harold was confused, and so sent an envoy to Scotland offering his older daughter Gytha to the Gaelic king's son Dhonnchad (Gytha wasn't as pretty as Gunhild though, so discussion of Gunhild was to be on the table as well), but Máel Coluim actually refused to receive it. This put Harold off, so he accepted the offers of the Uí Ímair of the Isles and Máel Snechtai. However there was another history altering condition placed on the head of Fingal Mac Gofraid Uí Ímair – he had to kill his distant cousin, Gofraid Cr[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]ó[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]ban. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] Now in our timeline Gofraid Cróban seized the Isle of Mann from Fingal and exiled him to Galloway where he would continue to rule as Gofraid's subordinate. He would go on to sack Dublin, and his progeny would rule Mann and the Isles for the next century. In both timelines, Gofraid was a refugee of the Battle of Stamford Bridge who fought on Tostig Godwinson's side. Therefore, as Harold Godwinson didn't die at the Battle of Hastings, he is alive to exact his revenge. In order to win the pretty young Gunhild's hand in marriage, Fingal has to make Gofraid disappear. The two haven't been getting along lately anyways, so it's not that much to ask. It just means that any possibility of Gofraid's descendants ruling the Isles dies with him in 1070. Fingal marries Gunhild, and Gytha marries Máel Snechtai. Máel Coluim III will be looking at Scandinavian princesses for his son. That's right; he never remarries. In our own timeline, he remarried to Saint Margaret, the daughter of Edward the Exile, but in this timeline, Edward the Exile's children are exiled again, returning home to Hungary, where they are taken in once again by the Hungarian court. Edgar, Edward's son who once had a claim to the English throne married Judith of Bohemia, who is a niece of the future King Solomon of Hungary by his sister Adelheid of Hungary, who married Bretislaus of Bohemia. Instead of marrying the good king of Scotland and becoming Saint Margaret, Margaret marries Yaropolk, son of Izyaslav I of Kiev. She never has Edward, Edmund, Ethelred, Edgar, Alexander, David, Edith, and Mary. Instead, her children were Oleksandr, Anastasya, Maria, Cristina, Irena, Vasilko, Juri, Igor, and Vseslav. Edgar and his wife Judith have two sons, Edvard and Drahomir. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] Harold hoped that the loyalty of the King of the Isles as well as the King of Moray would be of strategic use should Máel Coluim get the bright idea of attempting to invade Northumbria, as some of his predecessors had done in the past. But if Máel Coluim isn't looking to go on foreign adventures, but is actually just interested in keeping his own throne secure from other Scottish barons that would try to take it from him, and the loyalty of the Isles depended entirely on how long Fingal and Diarmait could hold their throne. Now, unlike our own timeline, Diarmait, albeit an old man, is in a considerably more stable state of control over his kingdom. This is mostly because of the riches provided by the Hebridean trade, which extended from the Baltic to the Mediterranean Seas, and the fact that he is now in control of 3 of Ireland's 6 port towns, having ousted the King of Waterford and installed his son Glúniairn in his place. Diarmait also enjoys increased contact with England due to the trade carried out by his subordinates in the Isles, and is learning all about new ideas concerning warfare and economics. Diarmait had also had a good relationship with the Godwinson family, and in our own timeline had opened his home to Harold's sons after escaping England in the aftermath of the Battle of Hastings, and event lent them his fleet for invasions of Norman England. In this timeline, his relationship with the Godwinson family continues into a healthy alliance between Leinster, the Isles, Ulaid, and England. Ever the innovator, since word of Harold's sweeping victory in Normandy in 1069 got to Ireland, the High-King had been particularly interested in the new military technology that the English were employing. Inspired by Harold's castle building campaign and his military reform, Diarmait wants to strengthen his own kingdom with the same ideas. The problem is, he has no idea how to build a proper Norman Castle. So, he improvises. Hill forts at this point in history were a very old concept, and there were a number within Ireland for Diarmait to look to for inspiration. What was about to happen however was quite interesting, as the idea was something that he came up with all on his own. Diarmait mac Maíl na mBó ordered the construction of three hill forts: one near Fearna (Ferns), one at Dublin, and one at Cill Dara (the seat of his family's rivals, the Uí D[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]ú[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]nlainge). But Diarmait gave himself a creative license when building these hill forts. They were not going to be the standard hill fort composed primarily of earthen ramparts; these were his own makeshift version of the motte-and-bailey, a design that was spreading across Western Europe and had been brought to England by Harold Godwinson after his captivity in Normandy. The design, which would later become known as the Irish Castle, centered around the basic design of the classical hill fort, but incorporated the use of flooded moats around the first two levels, and up to three baileys within the fort itself before the “keep” at the top of an artificial hill or “motte”. These “keeps” served as the homes of the nobles that ran the forts, and resembled the German bergfrieden in that they contained both a large tower and a “great hall” for permanent residence. Since the great hall was connected to the tower, these became known as [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]t[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]ú[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]r tithe[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] or [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]tower houses[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. Another ambition of Diarmait's that differed vastly from other Irish kings at the time, was that he didn't consider wearing armor cowardly- that is, anymore. There had been a time when he too had belonged to this Old Irish school of thought. But, seeing the military success of his ally, he not only saw enormous advantage, but necessity. While Diarmait had a good relationship with Harold, he believed that as High-King of Ireland, it was his responsibility to consider the nation's future, and the future of Ireland should the Irish continue to look at war the way they did could be quite grim indeed with a powerful rival so close. So, Diarmait's vision of the country differed markedly from his Irish rivals, and the development of better armor and weaponry were at the top of his priority list. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The growing power of the Uí Cheinnselaig is a serious matter of concern for the Uí Néill in Mide and Ulaid, the difference being in this timeline that Diarmait did not face tumultuous years in the late 1060s that depleted his troops and left him vulnerable in 1072 when war with the Uí Néill continued. While the Uí Dúnlainge don't agree with his high kingship, and in fact are rather upset themselves, they're not in a position in this timeline to do much about it. Diarmait mac Maíl na mBó is king of the most impressive kingdom in the country, and the other clans in Laighin such as the Uí Bairrche, Uí Enechglaiss, and Uí Garrchon are rather content; not to mention that Diarmait has half of Ireland under his thumb...[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] No, things were going very well in the British Isles. The winds of change were in the air, and nobody was embarking on any serious campaigns – yet.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] Harold Godwinson might have been injured badly by Robert Cor de Lion when he sustained an ugly fall at the beginning of the Rape of Normandy, but besides a ruined shoulder, he was doing quite well. His coinage proved quite successful, and so did the development of several new trading ports by the new found Hebridean traders, including Plymouth and Bristol. These traders were trading from the Volga River to the Mediterranean Sea, bringing all sorts of goods back to England, Scotland, and Ireland that were bolstering the local economies. While France was bickering over control of her northern coast, and now facing a war of cleansing with the Holy Roman Empire and Denmark, England was getting rich. Harold's sons by Edith Swan-neck were all of marriageable age, and his two children by Edith of Mercia, Harold and Ulf, were growing, as were her children from her previous marriage, Nest, Maredudd, Idwal, and Owain, whom Harold had granted shelter in hopes to later install them as satellites in Gwynedd and Powys, and even Gwent at future dates. He had a big family, and despite the fact that Edith of Mercia hated his guts, they seemed quite functional. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] With two 21 year old twins, a 19 year old son, and a 15 year old daughter, and more kids on the way, Harold's family was ripe for political marriage. Also, given the English bishops distance from continental affairs over the past 4 years, his common law heirs as well as his heirs from his marriage to Edith of Mercia were all recognized. Nobody really cared about church standards at the moment, since the church had all but abandoned England and was at war with itself. Everyone on the continent was just as aloof from England at this point as the Church, any political marriage that Harold and his two wives could come up with would have to be local, a fact that didn't really bother Harold at all. He had a huge military advantage over the Welsh and the Scottish, and he was beginning to like England's individuality. Cementing ties to the Hebridean nobility of the time was the possibility of marrying his young daughter to Fingal Mac Gofraid U[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]í[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Í[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]mair, King of the Isles from Mann and subordinate of [/FONT]Diarmait mac Maíl na mBó, the High-King of Ireland (with opposition). Sure enough, the Uí Ímair had already sent an envoy the previous year, but so also had Máel Snechtai, King of Moray, as well as the High-King of Ireland himself (and his enemies). Everyone in the British Isles seemed to want a piece of the English pie accept the person that Harold was looking for: Máel Coluim III of Scotland. The only offer that could rival a dynastic marriage between Máel Coluim and Gunhild was one between one of the Irish High-King's sons, however unlike Máel Coluim's situation in Scotland, the opposition to Diarmait mac Maíl na mBó's High-Kingship was rather serious. While Diarmait had half the country opposing his title, Máel Coluim had secured Scotland's economic and agricultural centers, and had a good relationship with his stepsons by his recently deceased wife, Ingibjörg Finnsdóttir, who ruled jointly over the Orkney Islands which were technically still subordinate to Norwegian rule. The only serious opposition to his crown was coming out of the malnutritioned subsistance hunters/farmers of the Scottish Highlands in the Mormaerdom of Moray. So... why had he not sent an envoy to London? Didn't he want to partake in the fun? Actually, no, he didn't. Máel Coluim was a devout catholic and very loyal to Alexander II as pope and therefore very distraught over the events of the past 4 years. When the pope gave William the Bastard a papal banner, although he didn't say it publicly, he supported the pope's decision. Unlike the other kings in the British Isles, he didn't much care for England's riches, as he was getting his own already from the Hebrideans, and he thought of Harold Godwinson as a vile, murdering, pillaging savage.
Harold was confused, and so sent an envoy to Scotland offering his older daughter Gytha to the Gaelic king's son Dhonnchad (Gytha wasn't as pretty as Gunhild though, so discussion of Gunhild was to be on the table as well), but Máel Coluim actually refused to receive it. This put Harold off, so he accepted the offers of the Uí Ímair of the Isles and Máel Snechtai. However there was another history altering condition placed on the head of Fingal Mac Gofraid Uí Ímair – he had to kill his distant cousin, Gofraid Cr[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]ó[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]ban. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] Now in our timeline Gofraid Cróban seized the Isle of Mann from Fingal and exiled him to Galloway where he would continue to rule as Gofraid's subordinate. He would go on to sack Dublin, and his progeny would rule Mann and the Isles for the next century. In both timelines, Gofraid was a refugee of the Battle of Stamford Bridge who fought on Tostig Godwinson's side. Therefore, as Harold Godwinson didn't die at the Battle of Hastings, he is alive to exact his revenge. In order to win the pretty young Gunhild's hand in marriage, Fingal has to make Gofraid disappear. The two haven't been getting along lately anyways, so it's not that much to ask. It just means that any possibility of Gofraid's descendants ruling the Isles dies with him in 1070. Fingal marries Gunhild, and Gytha marries Máel Snechtai. Máel Coluim III will be looking at Scandinavian princesses for his son. That's right; he never remarries. In our own timeline, he remarried to Saint Margaret, the daughter of Edward the Exile, but in this timeline, Edward the Exile's children are exiled again, returning home to Hungary, where they are taken in once again by the Hungarian court. Edgar, Edward's son who once had a claim to the English throne married Judith of Bohemia, who is a niece of the future King Solomon of Hungary by his sister Adelheid of Hungary, who married Bretislaus of Bohemia. Instead of marrying the good king of Scotland and becoming Saint Margaret, Margaret marries Yaropolk, son of Izyaslav I of Kiev. She never has Edward, Edmund, Ethelred, Edgar, Alexander, David, Edith, and Mary. Instead, her children were Oleksandr, Anastasya, Maria, Cristina, Irena, Vasilko, Juri, Igor, and Vseslav. Edgar and his wife Judith have two sons, Edvard and Drahomir. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] Harold hoped that the loyalty of the King of the Isles as well as the King of Moray would be of strategic use should Máel Coluim get the bright idea of attempting to invade Northumbria, as some of his predecessors had done in the past. But if Máel Coluim isn't looking to go on foreign adventures, but is actually just interested in keeping his own throne secure from other Scottish barons that would try to take it from him, and the loyalty of the Isles depended entirely on how long Fingal and Diarmait could hold their throne. Now, unlike our own timeline, Diarmait, albeit an old man, is in a considerably more stable state of control over his kingdom. This is mostly because of the riches provided by the Hebridean trade, which extended from the Baltic to the Mediterranean Seas, and the fact that he is now in control of 3 of Ireland's 6 port towns, having ousted the King of Waterford and installed his son Glúniairn in his place. Diarmait also enjoys increased contact with England due to the trade carried out by his subordinates in the Isles, and is learning all about new ideas concerning warfare and economics. Diarmait had also had a good relationship with the Godwinson family, and in our own timeline had opened his home to Harold's sons after escaping England in the aftermath of the Battle of Hastings, and event lent them his fleet for invasions of Norman England. In this timeline, his relationship with the Godwinson family continues into a healthy alliance between Leinster, the Isles, Ulaid, and England. Ever the innovator, since word of Harold's sweeping victory in Normandy in 1069 got to Ireland, the High-King had been particularly interested in the new military technology that the English were employing. Inspired by Harold's castle building campaign and his military reform, Diarmait wants to strengthen his own kingdom with the same ideas. The problem is, he has no idea how to build a proper Norman Castle. So, he improvises. Hill forts at this point in history were a very old concept, and there were a number within Ireland for Diarmait to look to for inspiration. What was about to happen however was quite interesting, as the idea was something that he came up with all on his own. Diarmait mac Maíl na mBó ordered the construction of three hill forts: one near Fearna (Ferns), one at Dublin, and one at Cill Dara (the seat of his family's rivals, the Uí D[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]ú[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]nlainge). But Diarmait gave himself a creative license when building these hill forts. They were not going to be the standard hill fort composed primarily of earthen ramparts; these were his own makeshift version of the motte-and-bailey, a design that was spreading across Western Europe and had been brought to England by Harold Godwinson after his captivity in Normandy. The design, which would later become known as the Irish Castle, centered around the basic design of the classical hill fort, but incorporated the use of flooded moats around the first two levels, and up to three baileys within the fort itself before the “keep” at the top of an artificial hill or “motte”. These “keeps” served as the homes of the nobles that ran the forts, and resembled the German bergfrieden in that they contained both a large tower and a “great hall” for permanent residence. Since the great hall was connected to the tower, these became known as [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]t[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]ú[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]r tithe[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] or [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]tower houses[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. Another ambition of Diarmait's that differed vastly from other Irish kings at the time, was that he didn't consider wearing armor cowardly- that is, anymore. There had been a time when he too had belonged to this Old Irish school of thought. But, seeing the military success of his ally, he not only saw enormous advantage, but necessity. While Diarmait had a good relationship with Harold, he believed that as High-King of Ireland, it was his responsibility to consider the nation's future, and the future of Ireland should the Irish continue to look at war the way they did could be quite grim indeed with a powerful rival so close. So, Diarmait's vision of the country differed markedly from his Irish rivals, and the development of better armor and weaponry were at the top of his priority list. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The growing power of the Uí Cheinnselaig is a serious matter of concern for the Uí Néill in Mide and Ulaid, the difference being in this timeline that Diarmait did not face tumultuous years in the late 1060s that depleted his troops and left him vulnerable in 1072 when war with the Uí Néill continued. While the Uí Dúnlainge don't agree with his high kingship, and in fact are rather upset themselves, they're not in a position in this timeline to do much about it. Diarmait mac Maíl na mBó is king of the most impressive kingdom in the country, and the other clans in Laighin such as the Uí Bairrche, Uí Enechglaiss, and Uí Garrchon are rather content; not to mention that Diarmait has half of Ireland under his thumb...[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] No, things were going very well in the British Isles. The winds of change were in the air, and nobody was embarking on any serious campaigns – yet.[/FONT]
Zirantun
Banned
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]What Goes on in Italy... well, it doesn't exactly stay in Italy.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] The year is 1070, and the month is March. The snow is melting in the alps, and the supporters of Pope Alexander II are fortifying their positions in Northern Italy against the coming German onslaught. Were the Germans going to put this new Pope Rufinus on the papal throne first, or were they going to eliminate France as a threat to their western border? The answer was pretty obvious: young Heinrich knew very well that he could not go to war with France as long as there were Italian margraves praying for the damnation of his soul. It would just be unwise to try to go on a foreign campaign when your own sovereignty is under threat. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] Let's recap for a moment, shall we? In case you don't remember, as this is all a wild leap from the events of our own timeline, the Holy Roman Empire, which at the time was just a loose string of stem duchies that answered to a single king or “emperor” under German law, is about to go to war with both France and the Papacy. Why? Essentially because Alexander II shot his mouth off for the last time, and Europe can see that this reform-minded politically flip-flopping pope is [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]not[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] what the Church needs. It started with the botched Battle of Hastings and the death of William the Bastard (who will never be called 'the Conqueror'), in which William had carried a papal banner. Alexander had tried to write this off as William's having burned and pillaged when he got to the English coast, which was kind of common practice for everyone at the time, but what he said has important consequences later. When Harold Godwinson executed his return raid on Normandy, practicing scorched earth tactics and burning as much of the duchy as humanly possible before he left, that had left everyone wondering. The situation intensified when a little boy named Arnulf III of Flanders decided to call the pope out with the ear of the Holy Roman Emperor, who also didn't like the pope as he was undermining the emperor's authority in the Investiture Controversy. So, when the Germans figured out that Alexander was everything [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]wrong[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] with the Church and needed to be put in his place once and for all... well, that's where we are now. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] Now, before we go into details about what's about to happen, let's reflect a little bit on what was going on in the year 1070 in our own timeline. By this time in history, the tensions of the Saxon Rebellion, which later led to the Great Saxon Revolt were boiling. Heinrich IV had embarked on a castle building program in the Harz Mountains of Thuringia and Saxony – the center of the Saxon heartland. He had done this because he wanted to secure and centralize imperial estates in the region. He had a bad tendency of staffing the castles with Swabians, who to make up for lack of real income, would conduct raids on the local Saxons. Egen I of Konradsburg, one of history's authentic douchebags, told the emperor that the count Otto of Nordheim, the long time Duke of Bavaria, was involved in a plot on his life. This resulted in an imperial ban being placed on Otto, subsequently ending in a conflict between the Saxon nobility and the Salian dynasty and Otto's loss of the duchy to Welf I, of the House of Este. Support of the Italian clergy in the Investiture Controversy was also at an all time high during this period. So when Heinrich IV tried replace the pope later on, he lost all political support, went on the Walk of Canossa, and his empire fell apart in the background as Rudolf Rheinfelden led a sizable rebellion against him.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] However in this timeline, things had actually gone quite differently. Yes, Heinrich had instituted the same castle building program in the Saxon heartland, but it was different this time because the Swabians never raided because of the declarations as to why William the Bastard had lost in England in 1066. So, without upset Saxon nobles who probably did want Heinrich IV dead in the first place, Egen I of Konradsburg never tells that vicious lie about Otto of Nordheim. Hence, there are no real pretenses to the Great Saxon Revolt besides the idea that the emperor is living a little large. But who cares about that when the emperor wants to make lands and titles in France and Italy available to you? I'm not sure exactly, are you? Likewise, Welf, of the Welf branch of the House of Este, never ascends to Duke of Bavaria, but instead, as a supporter of Alexander II, throws in with the Italians, and thus never marries Judith of Flanders, who instead marries Knud IV, of Denmark, the 28 year old son of Sven II Estridsen, who was 10 years her junior. She would never give birth to Welf II of Bavaria, meaning he would never exist for Matilda of Tuscany to marry 19 years later. Matilda would stay happily married to Berthold II of Carinthia, and Judith would have two sons with Knud, Torsten and Vidkun. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] Now, in Italy, there was a very staunch sense of support for the pope and his reforms that extended from Tuscany in the north to the Norman and Lombard principalities in the south. However, the instability of the papacy had caused the common populace of Southern Italy, which had followed the Greek Right until recently and still had deep ties to the Byzantine empire, to go wild. Very large revolts popped up in Salerno, Capua, Aversa, Abruzzo, and all over Norman Sicily. The Norman nobility in the area certainly had their work cut out for them, and while they supported the pope, their hands were full. So the real resistance was going to have to come out of the north, specifically a very ambitious young woman named Matilda, who was the Duchess of Tuscany and Spoleto. Now, Matilda, or otherwise known in Italian as [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]la Gran Contessa[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], was a powerful politician in her day and a supporter of Pope Gregory VII in the Investiture Controversy. However, she was still married to Godfrey the Hunchback, who was the Duke of Lorraine, and so her titles were technically held by him as well, which meant that any qualm she had with the emperor in support of the pope was going to have to go through her husband... if they stayed married. When the young duchess applied to the pope just after the Imperial Diet in January of 1070 for a divorce, in return promising her support against Heinrich IV, the pope granted her request, and formally divorced the two. Almost immediately, a proposal of marriage came out of Verona, from Berthold II, son of Berthold I, who was Duke of Carinthia, and by the middle of March, the two were married, uniting an Italian resistance front from Spoleto to Carinthia. This marriage signified the beginning of a new royal house, the house of Zähringen-Canossa, which would go on to rule a number of European countries in the centuries to come. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] However there was also another significant development that differs rather radically from our own timeline. German history records the existence of one Rudolf Rheinfelden, colloquially known as Rudolf of Swabia, a brother-in-law to Heinrich IV by his sister Matilda who turned against him in the Investiture Controversy. As a loyal catholic, Rudolf saw the other side of the coin when it came to the Gregorian Reforms, yet was frustrated by Gregory VII's reluctance to support his cause. However in this timeline, it is not the faithful Gregory VII whose papacy is being challenged, but instead, a rather loud-mouthed Alexander II. Rudolf agrees with the reformist policies of Alexander, but he does not agree with his clear political agendas in France, and is happy with the Imperial Diet's choice for a new pope in Rufinus. He feels that Alexander has 'lost his touch', so to speak, and that Rufinus will be better for the reforms against simony. This means that Rudolf will be marching [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]with[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] Heinrich, rather than against him into Italy to confront Matilda of Tuscany, and her father-in-law, Berthold I of Carinthia. Another interesting development was happening in the Byzantine Empire however that would seriously alter history once again. The revolts in the Norman holdings of Southern Italy in light of a seriously divided papacy had left Roger Bosso seriously distracted and in no place to be intercepting relief fleets from Byzantium. Andronikos Doukas, the traitor that cost Romanos IV Diogenes the Battle of Manzikert in our own timeline was the leader of the fleet, who, with several revolts to aid his cause, was able to liberate Bari and send Roger running with his tail between his legs to his castle at Scalea. Andronikos will remain in Italy, fighting to restore Byzantine supremacy in Calabria against the Normans for the next 7 years with the help of the Republic of Venice, which was still technically under the sovereign control of Byzantium. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] The defeats in Calabria further complicate the Norman situation however, as the soldiers of Norman princes gradually begin to learn about how the present pope has abandoned the people of Normandy, they soon begin to exhibit some serious disciplinary problems. Roger Bosso is killed by Guimond, one of his lower commanders, who then takes control of Scalea and allies himself with Richard Drengot, Count of Aversa, against Robert Guiscard, and against Pope Alexander II. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] In Northern Italy, the situation is slightly more favorable towards the pope and his supporters in Tuscany/Verona/Carinthia, who are further supported by Pisa, and the giudicati of Sardinia. The Genoese have thrown in with the Germans, and a conflict breaks out between Pisa and Genoa over the occupation of Corsica, which is claimed as a papal fief. The Pisans will therefore be locked in conflict, and unable to assist Matilda and Berthold in their fight against the Germans as German troops mobilize in Swabia and Bavaria to invade Italy. [/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] The year is 1070, and the month is March. The snow is melting in the alps, and the supporters of Pope Alexander II are fortifying their positions in Northern Italy against the coming German onslaught. Were the Germans going to put this new Pope Rufinus on the papal throne first, or were they going to eliminate France as a threat to their western border? The answer was pretty obvious: young Heinrich knew very well that he could not go to war with France as long as there were Italian margraves praying for the damnation of his soul. It would just be unwise to try to go on a foreign campaign when your own sovereignty is under threat. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] Let's recap for a moment, shall we? In case you don't remember, as this is all a wild leap from the events of our own timeline, the Holy Roman Empire, which at the time was just a loose string of stem duchies that answered to a single king or “emperor” under German law, is about to go to war with both France and the Papacy. Why? Essentially because Alexander II shot his mouth off for the last time, and Europe can see that this reform-minded politically flip-flopping pope is [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]not[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] what the Church needs. It started with the botched Battle of Hastings and the death of William the Bastard (who will never be called 'the Conqueror'), in which William had carried a papal banner. Alexander had tried to write this off as William's having burned and pillaged when he got to the English coast, which was kind of common practice for everyone at the time, but what he said has important consequences later. When Harold Godwinson executed his return raid on Normandy, practicing scorched earth tactics and burning as much of the duchy as humanly possible before he left, that had left everyone wondering. The situation intensified when a little boy named Arnulf III of Flanders decided to call the pope out with the ear of the Holy Roman Emperor, who also didn't like the pope as he was undermining the emperor's authority in the Investiture Controversy. So, when the Germans figured out that Alexander was everything [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]wrong[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] with the Church and needed to be put in his place once and for all... well, that's where we are now. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] Now, before we go into details about what's about to happen, let's reflect a little bit on what was going on in the year 1070 in our own timeline. By this time in history, the tensions of the Saxon Rebellion, which later led to the Great Saxon Revolt were boiling. Heinrich IV had embarked on a castle building program in the Harz Mountains of Thuringia and Saxony – the center of the Saxon heartland. He had done this because he wanted to secure and centralize imperial estates in the region. He had a bad tendency of staffing the castles with Swabians, who to make up for lack of real income, would conduct raids on the local Saxons. Egen I of Konradsburg, one of history's authentic douchebags, told the emperor that the count Otto of Nordheim, the long time Duke of Bavaria, was involved in a plot on his life. This resulted in an imperial ban being placed on Otto, subsequently ending in a conflict between the Saxon nobility and the Salian dynasty and Otto's loss of the duchy to Welf I, of the House of Este. Support of the Italian clergy in the Investiture Controversy was also at an all time high during this period. So when Heinrich IV tried replace the pope later on, he lost all political support, went on the Walk of Canossa, and his empire fell apart in the background as Rudolf Rheinfelden led a sizable rebellion against him.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] However in this timeline, things had actually gone quite differently. Yes, Heinrich had instituted the same castle building program in the Saxon heartland, but it was different this time because the Swabians never raided because of the declarations as to why William the Bastard had lost in England in 1066. So, without upset Saxon nobles who probably did want Heinrich IV dead in the first place, Egen I of Konradsburg never tells that vicious lie about Otto of Nordheim. Hence, there are no real pretenses to the Great Saxon Revolt besides the idea that the emperor is living a little large. But who cares about that when the emperor wants to make lands and titles in France and Italy available to you? I'm not sure exactly, are you? Likewise, Welf, of the Welf branch of the House of Este, never ascends to Duke of Bavaria, but instead, as a supporter of Alexander II, throws in with the Italians, and thus never marries Judith of Flanders, who instead marries Knud IV, of Denmark, the 28 year old son of Sven II Estridsen, who was 10 years her junior. She would never give birth to Welf II of Bavaria, meaning he would never exist for Matilda of Tuscany to marry 19 years later. Matilda would stay happily married to Berthold II of Carinthia, and Judith would have two sons with Knud, Torsten and Vidkun. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] Now, in Italy, there was a very staunch sense of support for the pope and his reforms that extended from Tuscany in the north to the Norman and Lombard principalities in the south. However, the instability of the papacy had caused the common populace of Southern Italy, which had followed the Greek Right until recently and still had deep ties to the Byzantine empire, to go wild. Very large revolts popped up in Salerno, Capua, Aversa, Abruzzo, and all over Norman Sicily. The Norman nobility in the area certainly had their work cut out for them, and while they supported the pope, their hands were full. So the real resistance was going to have to come out of the north, specifically a very ambitious young woman named Matilda, who was the Duchess of Tuscany and Spoleto. Now, Matilda, or otherwise known in Italian as [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]la Gran Contessa[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], was a powerful politician in her day and a supporter of Pope Gregory VII in the Investiture Controversy. However, she was still married to Godfrey the Hunchback, who was the Duke of Lorraine, and so her titles were technically held by him as well, which meant that any qualm she had with the emperor in support of the pope was going to have to go through her husband... if they stayed married. When the young duchess applied to the pope just after the Imperial Diet in January of 1070 for a divorce, in return promising her support against Heinrich IV, the pope granted her request, and formally divorced the two. Almost immediately, a proposal of marriage came out of Verona, from Berthold II, son of Berthold I, who was Duke of Carinthia, and by the middle of March, the two were married, uniting an Italian resistance front from Spoleto to Carinthia. This marriage signified the beginning of a new royal house, the house of Zähringen-Canossa, which would go on to rule a number of European countries in the centuries to come. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] However there was also another significant development that differs rather radically from our own timeline. German history records the existence of one Rudolf Rheinfelden, colloquially known as Rudolf of Swabia, a brother-in-law to Heinrich IV by his sister Matilda who turned against him in the Investiture Controversy. As a loyal catholic, Rudolf saw the other side of the coin when it came to the Gregorian Reforms, yet was frustrated by Gregory VII's reluctance to support his cause. However in this timeline, it is not the faithful Gregory VII whose papacy is being challenged, but instead, a rather loud-mouthed Alexander II. Rudolf agrees with the reformist policies of Alexander, but he does not agree with his clear political agendas in France, and is happy with the Imperial Diet's choice for a new pope in Rufinus. He feels that Alexander has 'lost his touch', so to speak, and that Rufinus will be better for the reforms against simony. This means that Rudolf will be marching [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]with[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] Heinrich, rather than against him into Italy to confront Matilda of Tuscany, and her father-in-law, Berthold I of Carinthia. Another interesting development was happening in the Byzantine Empire however that would seriously alter history once again. The revolts in the Norman holdings of Southern Italy in light of a seriously divided papacy had left Roger Bosso seriously distracted and in no place to be intercepting relief fleets from Byzantium. Andronikos Doukas, the traitor that cost Romanos IV Diogenes the Battle of Manzikert in our own timeline was the leader of the fleet, who, with several revolts to aid his cause, was able to liberate Bari and send Roger running with his tail between his legs to his castle at Scalea. Andronikos will remain in Italy, fighting to restore Byzantine supremacy in Calabria against the Normans for the next 7 years with the help of the Republic of Venice, which was still technically under the sovereign control of Byzantium. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] The defeats in Calabria further complicate the Norman situation however, as the soldiers of Norman princes gradually begin to learn about how the present pope has abandoned the people of Normandy, they soon begin to exhibit some serious disciplinary problems. Roger Bosso is killed by Guimond, one of his lower commanders, who then takes control of Scalea and allies himself with Richard Drengot, Count of Aversa, against Robert Guiscard, and against Pope Alexander II. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] In Northern Italy, the situation is slightly more favorable towards the pope and his supporters in Tuscany/Verona/Carinthia, who are further supported by Pisa, and the giudicati of Sardinia. The Genoese have thrown in with the Germans, and a conflict breaks out between Pisa and Genoa over the occupation of Corsica, which is claimed as a papal fief. The Pisans will therefore be locked in conflict, and unable to assist Matilda and Berthold in their fight against the Germans as German troops mobilize in Swabia and Bavaria to invade Italy. [/FONT]
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Good series of updates. However, I'd tone down the OTL references some to avoid confusion and put spaces between paragraphs.
Zirantun
Banned
Hahaha I'm not there yet. I know that the crap Andronikos Doukas pulled was one of the major factors of if not the reason why Romanos lost at Manzikert... so, we'll have to see. Who instead leads the rear guard, or is there even a Battle at Manzikert at all in the next few years?
The real problem wasn't Manzikert though, it was the complete collapse of the imperial government into civil war that had been going on for a long time. Whats needed isn't to win that battle, in the end whats needed is someone like Alexios I to come in and stablize the empire.
"Papal Infallibility" applies only to pronouncements on faith and morals made ex cathedra. The doctrine asserts that on such matters, God will insure that the Pope says what God wants.
There has never been any pretense that the Pope is "infallible" about anything else - certainly not in a statement about any mundane condition that could be proved wrong.
Would giving the papal banner to a nobleman waging a war be a mundane condition, though? It seems to me that there would be theological overtones to that - for instance, in the highly unlikely event that a modern pope called for a crusade, I assume that would be considered a pronouncement on faith and/or morals. Let me know if I'm wrong - I don't pretend to be an expert on this topic.