William will always be a bastard...

Zirantun

Banned
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]France: A Stillborn Nation[/FONT]




[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The Fall of House Capet[/FONT]




[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] Last time we talked about France, the situation had become rather dire. The French border had been retracted dramatically by near constant defeat at the hands of the Germans. They had subdued the Bretons for now, but that wouldn't mean much if they couldn't stop the Normano-German onslaught. Despite all of this, the French king, Philip I of Capet, seemed rather unstressed about everything, and was still holding court, and lavish dinner parties, etc, etc. This wasn't of course because he was a fool, but because he was trying to make everything appear as though it were going normally so that his vassals didn't panic. We left France at the end of the year 1072. The war has been on hold for the winter, and is on the eve of its reopening. Normans from Spain, Italy, Anatolia, and the Balkans had been returning to their homeland all winter long, and Turstin de Valognes and Willelme filz Osbern had been building boats for the planned sacking of Paris itself. The French of course had not been able to lay any of their traps in the Seine that would prevent the Norman boats from utilizing it as the river had frozen that winter, and with the ice just barely beginning to melt as the river and everything around it seemed to be clinging to the winter chill, they were doing what they could as quickly as they could. [/FONT]




[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] Although despite appearances, Philip was stressed... EXTREMELY stressed. A million different scenarios played over and over in his mind as he considered what should happen if he were to lose the war. First of all, an age of reform within the Church would surely come to an end. This meant that the Church would remain the puppet of whatever power were to control Rome, and that power for the moment was the Holy Roman Empire. This meant an unprecedented level of influence over European politics with which a number of people across the continent were rather uncomfortable with. France was just barely beginning to bud as a separate regional power, what would become of it if he should fail? Would France just become a part of Germany, as it had been under the Carolingians? Or would the Germans simply place a new king of a new house on the throne, ending the legacy of the House of Capet? How would history see his defeat? Would he be remembered as a defender of the true Christian faith, or would he be the fool who chose the wrong side, and cost his nation its sovereignty? [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] On February 26th, Philip decided that he should go hunting to relieve some stress. His choice of prey this time was the capercaillie. Hunting capercaillies, like hunting most birds, is a rather quiet affair. It's also not anything like hunting ducks or geese, as those two birds are rather social, so you have your pick. Capercaillies are highly territorial, and so if you find one, that may be the only one you find for 50-60 hectares, so one has to be at the top of their game, especially when hunting with a bow. As the birds are so specialized, they live very deep in the woods, away from human disturbances to their natural habitat, and descending so deeply into the forests of France at the time could be a very dangerous affair. France has long been devoid of wolves and bears, and so it may be strange for us to think of the woodlands surrounding Paris being of any threat. But in the 11th century, the grey wolf was still the apex predator of Europe's woodlands, followed by the brown bear, which still ranged well into France and Spain. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] Philip brought only a few royal guards with him and a couple of his young servants whom he considered to be close friends. He also brought his greyhound, Sigmund. Although greyhounds are coursing dogs, Philip himself had trained his dog to be an excellent retriever. So when he shot hithe law capercaillie cock, and it descended from the branches of the pine tree with a rather loud crash, Sigmund went in to retrieve, as he had been trained. The problem was that Philip, his friends, and his dog were not the only predators in the immediate vicinity. When he heard he heard the shrieks, the growls, and the barks of his dog as it came into direct conflict with a pack of wolves, he rather foolishly ran to its aid. His guards tried to follow, but Philip was too far ahead of them, his sword drawn to defend his loyal hound. But as he ran to rescue Sigmund, he did not watch his step, and after tripping and falling flat on his face, he presented a rather easy opportunity for the wolves, who had made very short work of his dog. The royal guards very valiantly fought the wolves off, but not before Philip had been mauled, having lost enough blood to be well beyond saving. His last words, were to ask whether or not the dog was alright...[/FONT]




[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] The king's death in a rather dramatic hunting accident presented the French nobility with a rather big problem. The most immediate solution would've been to place the king's 16 year old brother, Hugues on the throne. However Hugues had very little experience doing anything political at all, and was much more of a playboy who spent his time hunting and flirting with and probably bedding a number of girls at court. The current national situation called for someone who was a good general, but the established tradition of primogeniture meant that the throne had to go to Hugues. [/FONT]




[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] Although it didn't really matter who sat on the French throne at that point, because the House of Capet was finished. Guilhèm d'Aquitània had been listening to the gossip of the common people in his lands, and he knew that loyalty to the French crown was waning at an alarmingly fast rate. Many people were beginning to talk of the day when German troops would invade, pillaging and raping, and how France would forever after be a vassal of the German crown. It had already happened to a number of French counties, and although Guilhèm was hands down the most powerful man in the country at the time, with the most land, the most resources, and the most men at his disposal, he didn't have what it was going to take stop what was coming and he knew it. He also knew that if he stuck with it all to the end, there would be no quarter for him when everything was said and done. He was after all, the uncle of the Holy Roman Emperor, and he had heard quite some time ago of the fate of his mentor, Adalbert of Hamburg, who had risen against him. If Heinrich was willing to kill someone so close to him to achieve his goals, what was he willing to do to those he was not close to? Guilhèm was his uncle, of course, but he did not know his nephew much at all. But how would history remember him if he betrayed the king? Who the fuck cared? He certainly didn't. Anyone who knows anything about history knows that it often views things in a rather skewed manner. Guilhèm might be seen as a traitor, but a traitor to a dead cause, and should he betray the king, it would be the best course of action for his interests, and the interests of those people over whom he ruled. Sticking with the Capets meant defeat at one point or another. Perhaps he and his progenitors would be able to hold Aquitània for a few years or perhaps even a few decades, but it would suck his lands dry of all their riches before they finally fell. He was not a faithful enough catholic to subject himself, his progeny, and his subjects to such a fate over a feud over papal authority. So he could either accept this momentary defeat, or watch the French nation fall into total ruin over a fundamentalist dedication to a dead pope. So what did he do? Well, he was supposed to help garrison Paris for the impending siege with troops that he had stationed in Breith... he didn't. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] Hugues was crowned rather hastily after his brother's death, and the Normans sailed down the Seine before Easter and sacked Paris with surprising ease. The head of the French snake had been cut off, and Guilhèm was quick to do Heinrich homage when he came marching into Paris in the summer of 1073. After that, the rest of the French nobility followed suit rather immediately, as their last hope was gone. Hugues was sent into exile with his mother, Anna Yaroslavna, who returned to Kyiv, where she was welcomed by her brother, Izyaslav, and Richard IV li Cher, was crowned King of France...[/FONT]




[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] Yes, Richard IV li Cher became Richard IV li Cher of France. Why? Well, first of all, because one of the precedences under which the Germans had invaded France had been in the interests of the Normans, but despite their crushing defeat at the hands of the English, they had made enough of a come back in the past 3 years to be instrumental in the distraction, and destruction of the French resistance. Had the Normans not persevered in the north as long as they did, creating the distraction that they did for Guilhèm d'Aquitània, then the Duke of Aquitània might have been able to invade Italy and reinforce the Matilda da Toscana, holding off the Germans in the Po river Valley and either postponing or undoing their victory altogether. But more importantly than their aid in the war, Richard of Normandy was not in control as of vast a portion of France as Guilhèm, which made everyone uneasy. Guilhèm was at this point the duke over Aquitània, of Tolosa, Gasconha, and by and large in control of Breith; if he were to be crowned king, then France would go from being a defeated, decentralized country to centralized power. That was the last thing that Heinrich, or his anti-pope, Rufinus, wanted. If the French national spirit wasn't broken by fragmentation, then they might present a threat to the Holy Roman Empire and its authority over the church later on. So for Heinrich, crowning Richard as king served not only to keep Guilhèm at bay, but it served as the ultimate blow to French confidence. To the French nobility, it meant that their lands and their titles were secure for now, as the most powerful man in the country was not still only in a position to influence, but not to rule. [/FONT]




[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Sealing the Deal: Guilhèm and Richard [/FONT]




[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] So Richard is nearly 18 at this point in time. Despite his youth, he's pretty smart, and he knows that if he wants to stay on the throne, there are going to have to be a few adjustments made. First and foremost, rich and powerful Duke of Aquitània has to be subjugated. Richard attempts to do this by dividing his lands amongst some his most faithful Norman supporters. Angieus (Anjou) is given to Willelme filz Osbern, Tolosa (Toulouse) is given to Turstin de Valognes, and Gasconha (Gascony) is given to Walter Giffart. Guilhèm is willing to bite the bullet and cede Angiues and Tolosa, but seeing as the young king is also having his marriage to the Lady Herannuen annulled on the grounds of the diriment impediment of abduction, Gasconha is not a negotiable subject. Why? Because Guilhèm has decided that if he cannot make himself a lord in France, that he has the money and the men to make himself one in Spain, and he does, after all, have an offer of marriage there with Urraca de Zamora, even though she has been forcibly married to Pedro Ansúrez. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] Well, remember Hildegarde de Beaugency, the widow of Fulco Nerra, whose hand he had demanded in marriage, and later had secured the betrothal of his son to her daughter, Lyobsinde? This is the wife that Richard has chosen for Guilhèm. But obviously, as her child no longer has a claim to the Duchy of Angieus, which is now in the hands of Willelme filz Osbern, this is a bit of a problem. Hildegarde is, as mentioned many chapters ago, not the best looking bride, and that coupled with the fact that she has no title makes her of no interest to Guilhèm. As Gasconha is a part of his agricultural and military power house, as well as the route by which he plans to invade Naparroa (Navarre), and later Castilla to demand the annulment of Urraca's marriage to Pedro Ansúrez. It is the very backbone of all of his ambition, and if he is left only with Aquitània, then he will have to forget about all of it, and settle down. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] So what options does the new Norman King of France have to make this powerful lord bend to his will? Well, to start out, he has a lot of returned Norman adventurers who are very experienced and capable soldiers and generals, whose loyalty he is cementing by generous land grants. He also had a powerful fleet of Danes, Swedes, Geats, and Slavs who were ready and willing to raid Aquitània if Guilhèm did not comply. But what he did not have, was the loyalty of the Basques in Gasconha to count on when he came marching in. Indeed, he didn't have much in the way of anyone's sincere loyalty. To everyone in France, Richard was a puppet who had been placed on the throne by the conquering Germans, despite the fact that it was he and his Normans who had in fact taken Paris. He was doing a good job of making himself clear who held the big stick though. He had executed the counts of Blois and Nevers and exiled the count of Vermandois, ceding his lands to Eustace III of Boulogne, and also exiled Hawis of Breith a second time, an action which would have its own consequences very soon. Guilhèm on the other hand had the loyalty of his subjects, and his men, and so declined to marry Hildegarde de Beaugency, and declined to cede Gasconha to Walter Giffart. If Walter wanted it, he was going to have to take it first... [/FONT]




[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] Thus, before the onset of autumn of 1073, France was at war with itself once again. Although this time, it was going to split the kingdom in half... permanently.


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Guilhèm, as aforementioned, was not the only noble in France getting fucked by Richard. In fact he was just one of many. Two counts were executed and replaced with Normans, and another two exiled. But his best ally in the struggle was going to be found in a very unlikely place - Wales. Exiling Hawis of Breith turned out to be rather rash, because Hawis of Breith was married to Maredudd ap Owain ap Edwin who was the King of Deheubarth styled Duke of Breith in France who was in command of a rather impressive little fleet of Norse longboats that he had inherited, but also added to with money from the treasures of his new duchy. With those treasures, he also had some money for mercenaries, and manpower was what was needed if he was going to hold onto his new lands. Of course, where was the best place to look for mercenaries to fight a Norman French king? Well, England of course! Plus, it was right there. While Maredudd had previously had some very strained relations with the Earls of Myrce, who had affiliated themselves with the Kingdom of Gwynedd, his relationship with the Dumnonians, the Cornish, and the Saxons of Defenescir were absent, and so thus not all that tainted. There were many a man of each of the three ethnic groups willing to fight in Breith for the right price, and the right price was something that Maredudd was in a position to pay.


But Guilhèm was actually at first not interested in this opportunity. Remember that the two had not gotten along very well the previous Christmas at Philip's court. It didn't really even occur to him that that Welsh savage he had met over Christmas was in a similar boat as he, or that he could be of any help at all. Maredudd was actually the one who approached Guilhèm by sending his wife to Poitiers as an emissary. Maredudd offered the use of his fleet of Welsh soldiers and Anglo-Celtic mercenaries to raid down the Loire and keep the Normans at bay if Guilhèm promised not to withdraw his men from Breith, as so ordered by Richard. Guilhèm agreed, and ordered that anyone bearing the king's standard that crossed the Loire into either Aquitània or Breith be killed on sight. This meant that the professional search parties for Herannuen's boys would not be making any significant findings, as most of them ended up floating down a river or dead in a forest ditch. But it also meant a formal declaration of war, and a formal withdrawal of loyalty to the French crown. Guilhèm reasoned that he had done his homage to Heinrich, and not to Richard, and therefore was not subject to Richard's qualms.


Heinrich, wisely distanced himself from the situation. He had already strained his own country's resources and military in a rather expensive war with the Italian nobility as well as just getting as far as Paris. Aquitània was another beast. If he were going to lend imperial aid to Richard, then his troops would have to march across the whole of the French countryside right into the Aquitainian powerhouse to do battle with troops that were fighting on their home turf. If any of his vassals wanted aid Richard, such as Willelme of Borgogne, that was up to them. But HE had his own affairs to manage in Germany and Italy. For Heinrich, the war was over, so his answer to Richard's emissaries that autumn who found him on the long road back to Germany was that the Holy Roman Empire's part in the war had come to an end, and that it was up to Richard to manage his vassals.


That was fine with Richard. He could manage his own vassals without imperial help, it was just going to be a little more difficult...


Hostilities opened up in October, when Lancelin de Beaugency and his brother Jean de la Flèche under the orders of Guilhèm sacked the town of Kastell-Briant, which was under the lord Tehel, a Breton, loyal to Herannuen and Trefor al Louarn. Although Guilhèm might not have been interested in their sister, they were still interested in holding the lands they had been granted under Philip, and feared that Richard was going to recall Trefor al Louarn from Britain (as if anybody knew where the fuck he was). As Trefor had a very magical ability to rouse Bretons to his banner, they were not going to allow it to happen. Breith was going to stay under Hawis and Maredudd if they could help it, because that was the only way they could see that they were going to remain lords of anything anywhere. Tehel was executed, and his head sent to the capital, where most of our Norman nobles with their new titles were staying. Richard's response was swift...


With a substantial army of Normans, perhaps as many as 60,000 (although historical records vary widely according to the historian), he marched right into Angieus to assert himself, and butchered the de Beaugency brothers... with ease. They were defeated at the very place that they had opened the hostilities of the war in a very quick battle, since they were vastly outnumbered. However, Richard knew that they had only been acting on the orders of Guilhèm, and so after taking Kastell-Briant, marched directly for Poitiers, where he knew he would find Guilhèm. But he found the Loire river blocked by... Bretons? Were they Bretons? The language that the men were shouting in certainly sounded like Breton to him, and since there were only a few differences between Breton, Cornish, and Welsh at the time, it was easy to confuse any of the three. But some of the soldiers in his company who were Bretons, were able to confirm the language as being either Cornish or Welsh, but certainly not their own dialect. At The Battle of Anceneth (Ancenis, Ankiniz), the Normans found themselves unable to successfully cross the river, losing perhaps as many as 8,000 men to a much smaller Anglo-Celtic army of 20,000. The defeat was just a little bit humiliating, but when the Normans packed up and tried to cross somewhere else, they found they had been followed, and so fought a second battle even further down the Loire near Angers, but still were unable to cross. The weeks of trouble with Maredudd's fleet only served to buy Guilhèm valuable time in preparing his northern frontier for the war to come.


Toare (Thouars), Poitiers, Dolis (Déols), and Issoundun (Issoudun) were all heavily fortified and garrisoned for the Norman attack. But the Normans didn't show.


While the war between Richard and Guilhèm was rather short, it would have very long reaching consequences for the future. Richard decided that a winter invasion of Aquitània just after he had been crowned king was an unwise way to spend his money, his time, and his military forces. Angieus did indeed go to Willelme filz Osbern, but Tolosa and Gasconha unfortunately remained in the hands of Guilhèm for the moment. If the Aquitanian duke wanted to fight wars in the Pyrenees chasing after a Spanish bride, so be it. The sovereignty of Breith would be another issue however...
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Zirantun

Banned
His initial goal was remaining in control of Gasconha, but he has established his dominance south of the Loire, because Richard doesn't want to expend his forces and risk his new crown trying to bend him, and he knows he can't do it with both Breith and Gasconha and Tolosa. Just as well, Provence was part of the Holy Roman Empire at this point, and as Guilhèm consider's himself lucky that his nephew is marching home without his head, invading Provence is not his first priority.


But this establishment of his sovereignty over his lands is going to set a precedent for how Aquitània will behave on the political stage in the future, and will eventually get the future dukes a crown from the Pope.
 
I took a look on that other forum Zirantun was on, and he hasn't been active since August. I wonder if it's okay if someone here could continue this project...
 
This thread is still available for open continuation by another member! I'd be willing to do a collaboration even!
 
Ok, so Mr. Grouchio here has expressed interest in someone rebooting this dead timeline. I MIGHT be interested, however, I would like some advice on what you guys think needs to change in here. My own list would be:


1. Things need to slow down. Like, seriously. The Kingdom of the Isles becoming that powerful in what... 4 years?
2. No Investiture Wars. I'm perfectly fine with the idea of wars between the Catholic Church and the Holy Roman Empire, but the whole conflict in here, while well-written, I don't see as enormously plausible.
3. I'm not really crazy about the counter-invasion of Normandy either.
4. The whole Bohemia/Poland thing seems pretty iffy, at best.
5. I liked the interactions of everyone at Malazgert, but I don't think they're hugely plausible either.
 
What exactly is implausible about a wide-spread investiture conflict? William the Conqueror, ordained by god through the Pope lost his crusade to conquer England, and got Normandy burnt in revenge. And then all it took was one young Dutch Count to openly question the Pope. Suddenly a lot of rulers want the Pope's domineering influence out of their lands and power and rise in protest/secession from papal investiture, doubtless championed by Harold and Heinrich. Sound reasonable to me.

Wait what caused the Isles to become so powerful? Was this also the work of Malcolm?

Bohemia/Poland does sound quite iffy at the moment, at least give time between the Piasts and Premyslids before unification is reached.

I do wonder sometimes about Manzikert as well.

Either way I'll have to give this another read. Perhaps a collaboration could be reached?

And guys please feel free to comment!
 
What exactly is implausible about a wide-spread investiture conflict? William the Conqueror, ordained by god through the Pope lost his crusade to conquer England, and got Normandy burnt in revenge. And then all it took was one young Dutch Count to openly question the Pope. Suddenly a lot of rulers want the Pope's domineering influence out of their lands and power and rise in protest/secession from papal investiture, doubtless championed by Harold and Heinrich. Sound reasonable to me.


Because as someone pointed out earlier in the thread, the idea of the infallibility of the papacy was not really a thing at the time. I suppose a widespread investiture conflict MIGHT be plausible under these circumstances, but not as large as the original author had written it. Plus, the conflict seems to be largely hinging on Harold's counter-invasion of Normandy which, given the time frame, I don't think is entirely plausible. Maybe later, but by then there might have been too many fingers in the Norman pie for England to really be interested. They have plenty to do at home anyways (Wales and Scotland).


Wait what caused the Isles to become so powerful? Was this also the work of Malcolm?


It seems to just kind of happen via the separation of the Isles from the Norwegian Monarchy after the military might of Norway is so devastated. Plus, Ireland was a backwater compared to Scotland at the time, including the Isles, so the idea that the Isles would appeal for protection under an Irish king I don't think really works.


Bohemia/Poland does sound quite iffy at the moment, at least give time between the Piasts and Premyslids before unification is reached.


My main qualm with this is how Boleslaw gets into Moravia unnoticed through... where, exactly? Silesia was practically part of Bohemia at the time. There's no way in hell an army that large would be able to penetrate that deep into Czech territory without anyone knowing sooner.


I do wonder sometimes about Manzikert as well.


I just didn't like how Alp Arslan was murdered so quickly. I mean, I liked it, it was well written, but not exactly very plausible, I don't think.


Either way I'll have to give this another read. Perhaps a collaboration could be reached?


Sure, maybe. I might not even want to do this right now. And then I might... I don't know. I'm pretty busy with my books. lol
 
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