Sorry, we're not helping. I, for one, will shut up and let you get on with writing now 🙂
WI/WIP: A posthumous daughter for Catherine of Aragon and Arthur Tudor
- Thread starter HortenseMancini
- Start date
Since I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall I'm not going to respond to the spammer. And since all the fabulously argued evidence (@The Professor that was couple of really nice points!) didn't work I'm going to suggest we all just ignore until either it gets bad enough to call the mods or goes away?
Also, I wanted to second @FalconHonour and say @curlyhairedhippie I'm really really excited to see where this goes!
Also, I wanted to second @FalconHonour and say @curlyhairedhippie I'm really really excited to see where this goes!
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First off, I’m from the Commonwealth Realms, so give me the “I know better than you because it’s my country” attitude.
Others and myself have already addressed the contradictions in your argument and what seemed to be a misunderstanding on what primogeniture is.I just want to say one last time that primogeniture does not mean only males can inherit. That is clearly not what primogeniture means. The term by itself has no gender connotations.It only meant succession based on the order of birth.Even with the 2013 change, primogeniture continued to be practised in what’s called true primogeniture because the order of succession is now completely by the order of birth instead of being switched around based on gender. With that said, I am not going to speak to you further on that matter.
The main reason why Mary and Elizabeth had to accede to the throne through an act of parliament had to do with the fact that bastards could not inherit the throne. If Henry VIII did not declare them bastards, they would not need an act of parliament to succeed to the throne legally after their younger brother.
I think you are clearly embarrassing yourself with the way how you call an entire group of people with relevant studies into the era(many of whom also have higher qualifications) egoists when you yourself repeatedly tried to push this idea that “I know better than you all because I’m British”, and that ‘x is not happening because I said so’—using your own religious beliefs to try and enforce the idea upon the OP at one point(ignoring the fact that avunculate and cousin marriages are quite common during the period).
Good day.
EDIT:Agree with everyone else,I am going to ignore this guy from now on.
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That was an interesting night sleep.
I was going to respond to the errors in the response but since that will derail further I'll await the next threadmark.
I was going to respond to the errors in the response but since that will derail further I'll await the next threadmark.
Loathe as I am to derail further, I think there’s an aspect that has not been noted. As of 1504 the only queen had not really reigned. The interregnum of the 1140s was resolved by leaving Stephen on the throne and skipping Matilda by making Henry II his heir. That was why Henry VIII was adamant to do anything to have a male heir and that he preferred a child male heir to an adult female. In addition we’re looking at a regency for certain. The main precedent was for a man to rule and precedents are made as one goes. France had no precedent until the female child heiress was skipped over by her uncle(s). Once this happened no woman could ever rule France. Similarly Elizabeth II and Victoria would never have been Queen had the unique situation of the Tudor daughters not provided precedent for a female King and thereby for Mary II (who after all was acclaimed by the English authorities and had to persuade them to accept William III as her equal because she did not want to rule).
In this situation Henry of York is going to be King in all but name until 1520 or longer and it will be he who decides what happens to his ward as her Uncle and Regent, including who she marries. European and English history have ample instances where anything can happen - supercession, ‘sickness’, Levite marriage. Consider also that his father may have a view while he lives as to whether York marries before he dies. If York marries he can’t realistically expect to marry his niece (as that requires a vacancy). If he waits he’ll be 30+ and a bachelor - a slender reed to hang the Tudor lineage on if something happens to her and/or him. Then the throne is at risk of going to Scotland or France (via Elizabeth of York’s daughters husbands) or to a Yorkist and to civil war.
let’s see what our story maker decides as there is plausibility to several options, which have consequences of their own to guide the tale...
In this situation Henry of York is going to be King in all but name until 1520 or longer and it will be he who decides what happens to his ward as her Uncle and Regent, including who she marries. European and English history have ample instances where anything can happen - supercession, ‘sickness’, Levite marriage. Consider also that his father may have a view while he lives as to whether York marries before he dies. If York marries he can’t realistically expect to marry his niece (as that requires a vacancy). If he waits he’ll be 30+ and a bachelor - a slender reed to hang the Tudor lineage on if something happens to her and/or him. Then the throne is at risk of going to Scotland or France (via Elizabeth of York’s daughters husbands) or to a Yorkist and to civil war.
let’s see what our story maker decides as there is plausibility to several options, which have consequences of their own to guide the tale...
This was already addressed multiple times. By ‘resolved’, you mean Stephen the usurper losing the war and then given the face saving option of declaring the son of the original heiress his successor.The precedence of Henry II showed that the heiress’ sons(if not heiress herself)had a better right to the throne than anyone else. Baby Margaret’s sons would have the same weight of argument for the throne as well.
I think the best option would be for Grandpa Hal to try and get a few sons with Grandma Liz, and if Grandma Liz dies, find a new grandma to get a few more Tudor males.
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VVD0D95
Banned
Knowing Thomas, I definitely think he would try to get her in asa companion to Margaret
III: The Plans
“By the time that his granddaughter was christened in December 1502, Henry knew what had to happen. It would be a pain, no doubt, and this grew clearer as he saw the attitude of the Dowager Princess of Wales towards her daughter. Henry was very quiet in his elevation of the Duke of York to Prince of Wales in January 1503, especially keeping the news from the Spanish ambassadors who were in frequent contact with Dowager Princess Katherine.
For his next move, Henry called into play Queen Elizabeth. It was not the first or the last time that Elizabeth would play mediator to her husband and her daughter-in-law, but it was undoubtedly the most important time that she did so.”
“The infanta has been sorely troubled ever since she received a visit from the Queen earlier in the month. She holds faster to the little princess than ever, takes little food, and is most of the time in prayer. There is much concern as to her health.”
“BLAKE SCHOFIELD: So, what was Katherine’s reaction to all of this? She couldn’t have been happy about the prospect of her little Meg as only a queen consort of England.
DR. SYDNEY MARSDEN: Well, Katherine most certainly wasn’t happy about it. While we don’t have anything from her that describes her reaction, her ladies, both the English ones and the few who had come with her from Spain, write that she withdrew into fasting and prayer. But the record from Katherine herself drops off, and she didn't even appear at court again until Michaelmas in September 1503.
SCHOFIELD [nodding along]: Interesting! So there are no surviving letters or anything? Wasn’t Katherine known for keeping up a prolific correspondence for the time period?
DR. MARSDEN: Yes she was, but we really only have one letter from her from the immediate months following her daughter's betrothal, written to the King in May 1503. Katherine must’ve written to her parents and their ambassadors during this time as well but all those letters were destroyed. It’s smart that they were, because they only could’ve complicated relations between Katherine and her in laws.
SCHOFIELD: So relations had deteriorated by this time then?
DR. MARSDEN: Not necessarily. Elizabeth of York was always very fond of her daughter-in-law and would remain so. But Henry VII was growing increasingly frustrated with Katherine , and the anxieties that she surely vented to her parents would not have helped things.
SCHOFIELD: Oh that's certainly understandable! Now, did Katherine ever come around to her daughter’s engagement? Obviously Margaret still married Henry anyways but did she do so with her mother's blessing?
DR. MARSDEN [laughing]: I wouldn't use the word 'blessing' to describe it. Ultimately, Katherine came around to the idea as the best way to preserve Margaret's rights, since at least her children would be guaranteed to rule over England, but she was certainly not enthusiastic about it and, prior to the marriage itself, privately referred to Margaret as the Princess of Wales and Henry as the Duke of York.”
“In all things I remain your most humble and obedient servant. I hope that you may find me ever as pleasing a daughter as I have been.
Katherine, Infanta of Aragon, Princess of Wales”
“Henry Tudor, formerly Duke of York but now elevated to Prince of Wales, was betrothed to his infant niece Lady Margaret in spring 1503. Shortly afterwards, he departed from London for Ludlow, where he would spend most of his time until he became king. To modern sensibilities, the concept of an uncle marrying a niece is disturbing at best, and even in the 16th century such a union would've been uncommon. Indeed, Henry and Margaret's marriage was received with no small amount of hesitation by the English people. But it was also clear that it was the only way for the Tudor dynasty to move forward, and nobody was willing to sacrifice the peace that had been built over the past twenty years.”
For his next move, Henry called into play Queen Elizabeth. It was not the first or the last time that Elizabeth would play mediator to her husband and her daughter-in-law, but it was undoubtedly the most important time that she did so.”
From Henry VII: The Life and Times of a Tudor King by Reece Swanson
“The infanta has been sorely troubled ever since she received a visit from the Queen earlier in the month. She holds faster to the little princess than ever, takes little food, and is most of the time in prayer. There is much concern as to her health.”
From a letter written by one of Katherine’s Spanish ladies, Blanca de Vargas, to a relative in
Spain, dated April 1503.
“BLAKE SCHOFIELD: So, what was Katherine’s reaction to all of this? She couldn’t have been happy about the prospect of her little Meg as only a queen consort of England.
DR. SYDNEY MARSDEN: Well, Katherine most certainly wasn’t happy about it. While we don’t have anything from her that describes her reaction, her ladies, both the English ones and the few who had come with her from Spain, write that she withdrew into fasting and prayer. But the record from Katherine herself drops off, and she didn't even appear at court again until Michaelmas in September 1503.
SCHOFIELD [nodding along]: Interesting! So there are no surviving letters or anything? Wasn’t Katherine known for keeping up a prolific correspondence for the time period?
DR. MARSDEN: Yes she was, but we really only have one letter from her from the immediate months following her daughter's betrothal, written to the King in May 1503. Katherine must’ve written to her parents and their ambassadors during this time as well but all those letters were destroyed. It’s smart that they were, because they only could’ve complicated relations between Katherine and her in laws.
SCHOFIELD: So relations had deteriorated by this time then?
DR. MARSDEN: Not necessarily. Elizabeth of York was always very fond of her daughter-in-law and would remain so. But Henry VII was growing increasingly frustrated with Katherine , and the anxieties that she surely vented to her parents would not have helped things.
SCHOFIELD: Oh that's certainly understandable! Now, did Katherine ever come around to her daughter’s engagement? Obviously Margaret still married Henry anyways but did she do so with her mother's blessing?
DR. MARSDEN [laughing]: I wouldn't use the word 'blessing' to describe it. Ultimately, Katherine came around to the idea as the best way to preserve Margaret's rights, since at least her children would be guaranteed to rule over England, but she was certainly not enthusiastic about it and, prior to the marriage itself, privately referred to Margaret as the Princess of Wales and Henry as the Duke of York.”
From an interview of Dr. Sydney Marsden, historian and expert on the Tudor era, by BBC reporter
Blake Schofield, conducted 14 September 2017.
“In all things I remain your most humble and obedient servant. I hope that you may find me ever as pleasing a daughter as I have been.
Katherine, Infanta of Aragon, Princess of Wales”
From a letter written by Katherine of Aragon to King Henry VII, dated 9 May 1503.
“Henry Tudor, formerly Duke of York but now elevated to Prince of Wales, was betrothed to his infant niece Lady Margaret in spring 1503. Shortly afterwards, he departed from London for Ludlow, where he would spend most of his time until he became king. To modern sensibilities, the concept of an uncle marrying a niece is disturbing at best, and even in the 16th century such a union would've been uncommon. Indeed, Henry and Margaret's marriage was received with no small amount of hesitation by the English people. But it was also clear that it was the only way for the Tudor dynasty to move forward, and nobody was willing to sacrifice the peace that had been built over the past twenty years.”
From The Pomegranate Queen by Carlie Needham
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Well put I think. Acknowledges the issues but makes clear it's the only solution. And by the time we get another sole granddaughter or daughter her reign should be all but guaranteed rather than needing her uncle's hand.
Beautiful chapter, I like the way you dealt with the issues of Henry and Margaret having to marry - Henry VII might know it's the best thing to do, but he can't be too delighted with the idea that his son is going to have to wait so long to be able to secure the Succession... I wouldn't be surprised if Henry didn't start taking mistresses a long time before Margaret matures... you could almost end up with a triangle at the centre of the English Court if Henry is besotted with a mistress and refuses to give her up for the sake of the niece he's been forced to make his Queen.
And of course, Katherine would always see her daughter as outranking her brother-in-law. That's just so Katherine.
And of course, Katherine would always see her daughter as outranking her brother-in-law. That's just so Katherine.
Yes, future English queens will not need to marry their uncles to secure the Crown.
Glad you enjoyed it. Elizabeth seems like she would be very good at mediating, considering what her teenage years were like.
Oh yes, Katherine will always see her little pearl as ranking higher than Henry, which will definitely irk him but is, as you pointed out, highly appropriate. Henry will indeed take a mistress long before he and Margaret are husband and wife in earnest, poor Margaret is going to have a lot to contend with in that arena. And Henry VII and Elizabeth of York are going to be following their OTL plan in regards to securing the succession after Arthur's death...
I’ll bet Maggie can take her
Hopefully with a happier ending?
Slightly...either Elizabeth or her baby will survive ITTL and I'm leaning towards Elizabeth.
Her mediating will be really helpful for the family. Though another Tudor baby would be cool too, and then Henry VII can remarry which could be interesting. So, either will be cool.
IV: The Other Pregnancy
“By Christmas 1502, Elizabeth of York was already carrying her sixth child but the news would not be announced until February 1503, shortly after the Queen turned 37. It was greeted with universal joy, for the concern that the Prince of Wales or Lady Margaret could be carried off by any number of childhood ailments was still great.”
“Elizabeth went into labor on September 12, 1503. It appears to have been especially difficult, her physicians reporting at more than one point that she was near death. Though Elizabeth managed to pull through, the experience would permanently damage her health.”
“News has come that the Queen has gone to labor with her child, and His Majesty has been near beside himself with anxiety. Lady Richmond takes much pain to comfort him, but he will not have it.”
“The poor Queen has brought forth a piddly girl child. Such a disappointment it must be for the king, he sorely hoped for another lusty prince.”
“LADIE Katharine Tudor, borne 12 September 1503 deceased 15 September 1503.”
“In the aftermath of her youngest daughter’s demise, Elizabeth of York spent more time than ever with Margaret, her only grandchild. Princess Katherine seems to have made no objections to this, and in fact welcomed her mother-in-law’s visits, though it no doubt reminded her that her own parents would never get to see her child. At this time, King Henry also began paying more frequent visits to his granddaughter, and relished in remarking that young Margaret seemed thoroughly a Tudor, down to the red-blonde hairs on her head [1].”
[1] A trait inherited from her maternal side too, but nobody tell that to King Henry VII!
From Henry VII: The Life and Times of a Tudor King by Reece Swanson
“Elizabeth went into labor on September 12, 1503. It appears to have been especially difficult, her physicians reporting at more than one point that she was near death. Though Elizabeth managed to pull through, the experience would permanently damage her health.”
From Queen of White Roses by Mira Kearns
“News has come that the Queen has gone to labor with her child, and His Majesty has been near beside himself with anxiety. Lady Richmond takes much pain to comfort him, but he will not have it.”
From a journal entry of a gentleman attendant to Henry VII, dated 12 September 1503.
“The poor Queen has brought forth a piddly girl child. Such a disappointment it must be for the king, he sorely hoped for another lusty prince.”
Note in the journal of a Tudor noblewoman at the court of Henry VII, dated 13 September 1503.
“LADIE Katharine Tudor, borne 12 September 1503 deceased 15 September 1503.”
Inscription on the tomb of Katherine Tudor, the youngest daughter and child of Henry VII and Elizabeth of York.
“In the aftermath of her youngest daughter’s demise, Elizabeth of York spent more time than ever with Margaret, her only grandchild. Princess Katherine seems to have made no objections to this, and in fact welcomed her mother-in-law’s visits, though it no doubt reminded her that her own parents would never get to see her child. At this time, King Henry also began paying more frequent visits to his granddaughter, and relished in remarking that young Margaret seemed thoroughly a Tudor, down to the red-blonde hairs on her head [1].”
From The Pomegranate Queen by Carlie Needham
[1] A trait inherited from her maternal side too, but nobody tell that to King Henry VII!
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