WI: Widespread adoption of half-tracks before WWI

[Falk]

I was wondering what would be the consequences of a more widespread adoption of the Kegresse track (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kégresse_track) before the first world war since the idea existed before the war. Specifically it is interesting to see its application to armored cars and how that would affect the western front?

 

[Hoplophile]

The availability of lots of half-tracked trucks in 1914 would have allowed the army that possessed them to make better use of its heavy artillery. For one thing, it would free men who had been handling horses for other duties, thereby making possible the increase in the number of pieces per unit or the raising of additional units. For another, it would reduce the time needed to shift heavy artillery units from one place to another, thereby increasing the time that artillery units were able to participate in bombardments.

All other things being equal, the army that would have gained the most from the widespread adoption of half-tracked trucks would be that of Germany, which had far more heavy artillery pieces than teams of the sort of horse teams needed to move them and their ammunition wagons. In 1914, the forming of a greater percentage of Germany's stock of heavy artillery pieces into mobile batteries would have made it possible for the German armies in the west to "have their cake and eat it, too." That is, they would not have had to choose between the bombardment of Antwerp and that of Verdun. In 1915, a Germany with more mobile heavy artillery would have been more successful in the east, and, in particular, able to breakthrough the Russian defensive position along the Daugava (Dvina, Düna) River in the late summer of that year.

 

[mrmandias]

@Hoplophile,
assuming that increased mechanization is costless and doesn't impinge on the production of anything else, which I highly doubt.

 

[FillyofDelphi]

@Hoplophile,
assuming that increased mechanization is costless and doesn't impinge on the production of anything else, which I highly doubt.

Also, assuming that these trucks can run on grass/fodder, rather than the petrol products which they actually use. Which would need to be transported en-mass into Continental Europe to support their use on a WW I scale during an era where civic vehicles were just being introduced, meaning there's a limited pre-war oil infrastructure to redirect to war use.

 

[Driftless]

WW1 era Half tracks had some utility as artillery tractors and and for hauling some cargo. In the earliest, most mobile days of the war, they might have served in a reconnaisance role too. Not much of anything worked well near the soupy crater-pocked Western Front once the full-on trench warfare settled in. Pre-war Kegresse half-tracks proved to be well designed and durable. Post-war they made some very impressive crossings of the Sahara and the snow-covered Hardangervidda

Petroleum infrastructure would need to have been built up, to be sure - that's probably the biggest hinderance in the early part of the war. However, as comparisson, usable fodder and potable water for draft horses also had to be brought in and built up as well.

 

[marathag]

Also, assuming that these trucks can run on grass/fodder, rather than the petrol products which they actually use.

Or Coal or Wood

 

[Driftless]

From the 1913 Patent submission by Adolphe Kegresse:

He modified a number of vehicles for the Tsar; including these machines from 1914: (from Wikiwand)

 

[Falk]

WW1 era Half tracks had some utility as artillery tractors and and for hauling some cargo. In the earliest, most mobile days of the war, they might have served in a reconnaisance role too. Not much of anything worked well near the soupy crater-pocked Western Front once the full-on trench warfare settled in. Pre-war Kegresse half-tracks proved to be well designed and durable. Post-war they made some very impressive crossings of the Sahara and the snow-covered Hardangervidda

Petroleum infrastructure would need to have been built up, to be sure - that's probably the biggest hinderance in the early part of the war. However, as comparisson, usable fodder and potable water for draft horses also had to be brought in and built up as well.

I was thinking more about armored car half tracks and how useful they could have been. I would imagine that they would have at least the same no-man land crossing capabilty as the A7V or the Saint-Chamond.

 

[Driftless]

I was thinking more about armored car half tracks and how useful they could have been. I would imagine that they would have at least the same no-man land crossing capabilty as the A7V or the Saint-Chamond.

Yup. Also, the Kegresse half-tracks used continuous rubber belts vs metallic link tracks. A lot quieter, so at least the opportunity of temporary surprise.

 

[FillyofDelphi]

Or Coal or Wood

... and water, in that case, if you're using a large number of steam boilers. Which means large capacity for liquid transport pipelines or proper "tanks"/"barrels"... like petrol. Though, you're right that requires less transport from abroad, it still does require the slow build-up of physical infastructure to move the front forward, defeating a lot of the purpose of using them for mobile warfare.

 

[marathag]

... and water, in that case, if you're using a large number of steam boilers. Which means large capacity for liquid transport pipelines or proper "tanks"/"barrels"... like petrol. Though, you're right that requires less transport from abroad, it still does require the slow build-up of physical infastructure to move the front forward, defeating a lot of the purpose of using them for mobile warfare.

Horses also need clean water. 8 gallons a day for a draft horse just sitting in pasture, twice that easy when working hard, and a bit more if being fed dry fodder rather than grazing.

 

[Driftless]

Horses also need clean water. 8 gallons a day for a draft horse just sitting in pasture, twice that easy when working hard, and a bit more if being fed dry fodder rather than grazing.

Good points. You also need for any fodder to be kept dry. Moldy hay or grain can be disasterous. Pasture grass near a WW1 battlefield is likely highly contaminated as well.

True story - A veterinarian once told me: "It's amazing that horses have survived their evolution. The only thing that works on them is that they can run. Everything else in their systems is for shit..."

 

[phx1138]

Any steam vehicle can run on just about any liquid fuel, so you won't see the issues OTL Germany had with oilfields: it's easy to substitute kerosene or alcohol (which can be produced from food waste, so no need to divert from feeding the public), or (disgusting as it may sound) the dung slurry from hog or chicken production (fed directly into the boilers, or processed to extract liquid methane). Coal gasification is also possible, but chemically difficult & economically (possibly) unfeasible.

Wood chips/sawdust are also an option.

 

[Driftless]

Any steam vehicle can run on just about any liquid fuel, so you won't see the issues OTL Germany had with oilfields: it's easy to substitute kerosene or alcohol (which can be produced from food waste, so no need to divert from feeding the public), or (disgusting as it may sound) the dung slurry from hog or chicken production (fed directly into the boilers, or processed to extract liquid methane). Coal gasification is also possible, but chemically difficult & economically (possibly) unfeasible.

Wood chips/sawdust are also an option.

Methane capturing systems (derived from cow manure) are becoming common on large dairy farms across the US. The technology isn't exotic; the plants appearance is more out of regulatory requirement (when you put several hundred to several thousand cows in a small space - that produces vast amounts of manure at a concentration level that is a significant pollution source). The captured methane is used on the farm, sold, or burnt off

*edit* an example - you frequently see this kind of set up in my corner of the world. There's still copious amounts of solid manure matter to be dealt with

 

[phx1138]

Methane capturing systems (derived from cow manure) are becoming common on large dairy farms across the US. The technology isn't exotic; the plants appearance is more out of regulatory requirement (when you put several hundred to several thousand cows in a small space - that produces vast amounts of manure at a concentration level that is a significant pollution source). The captured methane is used on the farm, sold, or burnt off

I did not know about that. (It's what I'd do. )

 

[BlondieBC]

Also, assuming that these trucks can run on grass/fodder, rather than the petrol products which they actually use. Which would need to be transported en-mass into Continental Europe to support their use on a WW I scale during an era where civic vehicles were just being introduced, meaning there's a limited pre-war oil infrastructure to redirect to war use.

Where do you think the oil fields are in 1913?

Hint: The Germans have easy access to 20% of global production.

 

[BlondieBC]

I was wondering what would be the consequences of a more widespread adoption of the Kegresse track (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kégresse_track) before the first world war since the idea existed before the war. Specifically it is interesting to see its application to armored cars and how that would affect the western front?

As to the Western front, at least for Germany, I have a pretty good idea how they would have been used. The prewar army bills have provision for funding trucks, and these are setup not in combat units but trucking battalions. The army generally requested more than was funded, so it would be easy to add these units. It would make sense over time that these units might have machine guns or even armored cars attacked as organic security. If we see additional units, they will not be used as fighting units but to move infantry units up to the front and maybe attached artillery.

As to the half-tracks, I guess it would be easy to have these used instead of only wheeled vehicles.

 

[Insider]

The technology isn't exotic; the plants appearance is more out of regulatory requirement (when you put several hundred to several thousand cows in a small space - that produces vast amounts of manure at a concentration level that is a significant pollution source).

How did your farmers managed to teach cow to shit in one place? Or do they go around the ranch and gather it.
I know I know I am literary shitposting and offtoping but still, it seems strange. Granted, there are animals like hogs and chickens that can live confined to single place, as inhumane as it is.

 

[Driftless]

How did your farmers managed to teach cow to shit in one place? Or do they go around the ranch and gather it.
I know I know I am literary shitposting and offtoping but still, it seems strange. Granted, there are animals like hogs and chickens that can live confined to single place, as inhumane as it is.

Not my cows.., merely pointing out the operational change and that methane processing is more commonplace than you might think

Generally speaking, the factory farms put a high density of cows in small areas, largely concrete floors to facilitate cleanup - not a good life for the cows.