WI: 'Welsh Invasion' of Henry VII.

[Sarthak]

According to The First of the Tudors Henry VII during his youth while still in England, was extremely taken with his native roots in Wales, could speak rudimentary welsh and throughout his entire life, he was extremely pro-welsh. Indeed, Wales as a whole developed on a whole different level compared to the rest of England under his reign. What if during the course of the War of the Roses, Henry VII manages to win the war (like iotl), but instead of being a simple dynasty swap it is more akin to the Norman Invasion instead, with a culturally and linguistically Welsh dynasty on the throne of England. How would English language culture and history change as a result?

Thoughts?

 

[Euphemios]

Implausible at best, as Henry VII came to the throne not actually by right of conquest, but by the right of his Beaufort lineage and the Yorkist support that his wife garnered him.
Say, how does a Pole revolt sound?

 

[Sarthak]

Implausible at best, as Henry VII came to the throne not actually by right of conquest, but by the right of his Beaufort lineage and the Yorkist support that his wife garnered him.
Say, how does a Pole revolt sound?

Indeed, he does have more legitimacy than William the Conqueror, but it wouldn't be that out of the ordinary for Europe at the time. Monarchs who had blood lineage but a different cultural upbringing upon assuming the throne of a different country nearly always brought his cultural influences alongside. Sometimes that was weak and subtle influences and sometimes they were large.

 

[RedKing]

I am not sure if this works. If Henry hypes his invasion up as a Welsh invasion, he isn’t going to get much support in England (and I doubt the Welsh could make up for that). He could begin a policy of Welsh-inizing England after he takes the throne, though I imagine it’d be unpopular, unless he does it over a long period of time. If he succeeds I guess he really would be the Y Mab Darogan.

 

[Sarthak]

I am not sure if this works. If Henry hypes his invasion up as a Welsh invasion, he isn’t going to get much support in England (and I doubt the Welsh could make up for that).

I mean more in the sense of William I. He didn't hype his 'norman'-ess but only claimed the throne of England. Similar manner is what i am aiming for.

He could begin a policy of Welsh-inizing England after he takes the throne, though I imagine it’d be unpopular, unless he does it over a long period of time. If he succeeds I guess he really would be the Y Mab Darogan.

Mostly I am thinking about a slow and steady approach like the Normanizing Court of iotl under William I.

 

[RedKing]

I mean more in the sense of William I. He didn't hype his 'norman'-ess but only claimed the throne of England. Similar manner is what i am aiming for.

Mostly I am thinking about a slow and steady approach like the Normanizing Court of iotl under William I.

Ah I see. That’s possible then if he’s a bigger fan of Welsh culture

 

[Sarthak]

Ah I see. That’s possible then if he’s a bigger fan of Welsh culture

It would certainly be interesting if a Welsh-English creole language formed in the same manner with which Norman influenced English. The early examples of Wenglish certainly seemed that way before becoming a simple accental dialect.

 

[Gloss]

I don't think this is really plausible at all, French was a language spoken by millions of people(well the northern Gallo-Roman dialects anyway) while Welsh had something like less than 1/20 of the total speakers of French.
At best you could see such a king removing any existing restrictions on the Welsh language and culture, try to Welshify existing English people in Wales and maybe give Welsh lords authority over the marches but that wouldn't even result in the actual Welshification of the middle-lower Severn valley I'd imagine.

 

[Sarthak]

I don't think this is really plausible at all, French was a language spoken by millions of people(well the northern Gallo-Roman dialects anyway) while Welsh had something like less than 1/20 of the total speakers of French.
At best you could see such a king removing any existing restrictions on the Welsh language and culture, try to Welshify existing English people in Wales and maybe give Welsh lords authority over the marches but that wouldn't even result in the actual Welshification of the middle-lower Severn valley I'd imagine.

Well i don't mean it in the sense of making England majority Welsh-identifying and Welsh-speaking. The Norman Invasion didn't really stop the idea of being English after all. I was thinking more on societal, cultural and political terms. Like how the title of Duke of Normandy became extremely important 1066 - 1451, something like Henry VII taking the title King of the Britons as a secondary title or something like that. Rhyp ap Thomas certainly had suggested that Henry VII take the title. And cultural things in the same manner as that of the Norman invasion - some Welsh loanwords, more intermarriage, Welsh marriage traditions adopted in the same fashion as how the norman traditions and rituals were adopted etc.

 

[Clandango]

Henry spend 14 years straight in Brittany. Anyone knew how similar their language or culture might be to the Welsh? I imagine quite different given distance, but maybe something can be done there. I doubt he would e hobnobbing with the peasants though, nor marrying anyone from there. Depends if the King of France thinks this would give him a and his descendants further claim to the land. Come to think of it, anyone know how much the English kings leaned into their French blood propaganda wise? I know the English populace was angry when they gave up land to the French, but it may have partially been because of the generations of taxation, conscription, etc ending up with them and their country worse off than before. Henry VII’s first son was named Arthur so we got a bit of the King of the Britain’s vibe going. Maybe more focus is put on that? Might be the Welshness (which means foreign I think, like with the Walloons) is fetishized a little, though it would be harder to do than with the orientalist where they put pictures of people representing Asia in robes and turbans. Given Wales was actively being colonized... Hmmm. For this to count as Henry being really Welsh does he need to appoint a lot of them to power in the national government and court? Or goes have a descendent of a local prince, plus some marcher lords, suffice?

 

[Sarthak]

Henry spend 14 years straight in Brittany. Anyone knew how similar their language or culture might be to the Welsh? I imagine quite different given distance, but maybe something can be done there. I doubt he would e hobnobbing with the peasants though, nor marrying anyone from there. Depends if the King of France thinks this would give him a and his descendants further claim to the land. Come to think of it, anyone know how much the English kings leaned into their French blood propaganda wise? I know the English populace was angry when they gave up land to the French, but it may have partially been because of the generations of taxation, conscription, etc ending up with them and their country worse off than before. Henry VII’s first son was named Arthur so we got a bit of the King of the Britain’s vibe going. Maybe more focus is put on that? Might be the Welshness (which means foreign I think, like with the Walloons) is fetishized a little, though it would be harder to do than with the orientalist where they put pictures of people representing Asia in robes and turbans. Given Wales was actively being colonized... Hmmm. For this to count as Henry being really Welsh does he need to appoint a lot of them to power in the national government and court? Or goes have a descendent of a local prince, plus some marcher lords, suffice?

Breton and Welsh have some amounts of intelligibility though limited to a few phrases and numbers as far as I remember.
Certainly there were many Welshmen who could have gained high offices if Henry VII wanted them to. William ap Gruffydd Fychan, his son, 9th Baron of Kymmer-yn-Edeirnion, George Talbot, the 4th Earl of Shrewsbury, John de Braose, etc. are good examples.

 

[RedKing]

Certainly there were many Welshmen who could have gained high offices if Henry VII wanted them to. William ap Gruffydd Fychan, his son, 9th Baron of Kymmer-yn-Edeirnion, George Talbot, the 4th Earl of Shrewsbury, John de Braose, etc. are good examples.

There’s also Rhys ap Thomas who supported Henry and the Herberts, who he grew up with.

 

[Jonathan1997]

According to The First of the Tudors Henry VII during his youth while still in England, was extremely taken with his native roots in Wales, could speak rudimentary welsh and throughout his entire life, he was extremely pro-welsh. Indeed, Wales as a whole developed on a whole different level compared to the rest of England under his reign. What if during the course of the War of the Roses, Henry VII manages to win the war (like iotl), but instead of being a simple dynasty swap it is more akin to the Norman Invasion instead, with a culturally and linguistically Welsh dynasty on the throne of England. How would English language culture and history change as a result?

Thoughts?

You would need an early change in the time line like Edward I of England did not conquer Wales but brought them into the kingdom using diplomacy. You could even have this event happening during the early Norman and Plantagenet kings.

The nobility would be more diverse being anglo-french and Gaelic.

 

[saluto]

There is a reason he landed in wales. It’s where most of his support was, and at Bosworth it’s where most of his men came from. You could very well say OTL was a Welsh Invasion of England, but it doesn’t make sense from a legitimacy standpoint for him to say so.

Remember that he changed the date of his coronation retroactively to before Bosworth so he could claim everyone who supported Richard III were rebels. So the Welsh weren’t ‘invading’ England, they were actually helping the King crush a pretender.

 

[Sarthak]

You would need an early change in the time line like Edward I of England did not conquer Wales but brought them into the kingdom using diplomacy. You could even have this event happening during the early Norman and Plantagenet kings.

The nobility would be more diverse being anglo-french and Gaelic.

That's a literal butterfly massacre. The implications of Edward I not conquering Wales is far greater and one of them includes Owen Tudor, or Owain ap Tudur in that scenario (if he is even born) not marrying Catherine of Valois.

 

[Sarthak]

There is a reason he landed in wales. It’s where most of his support was, and at Bosworth it’s where most of his men came from. You could very well say OTL was a Welsh Invasion of England, but it doesn’t make sense from a legitimacy standpoint for him to say so.

Remember that he changed the date of his coronation retroactively before to Bosworth so he could claim everyone who supported Richard III were rebels. So the Welsh weren’t ‘invading’ England, they were actually helping the King crush a pretender.

True enough.

 

[pandizzy]

Henry VII couldn't even speak Welsh

 

[Jonathan1997]

That's a literal butterfly massacre. The implications of Edward I not conquering Wales is far greater and one of them includes Owen Tudor, or Owain ap Tudur in that scenario (if he is even born) not marrying Catherine of Valois.

If the Prince of Wales actually gave Edward I of England his fealty like you was a supposed to than it's very possible the Prince of Wales could have expanded his authority in Wales with Edward support. Also the prince of Wales only had a doughter called Eleanor she could marry a son of Edward I of England. Edward had many sons with Eleanor of castile one of those done could marry the prince of Wales her.

 

[Sarthak]

Henry VII couldn't even speak Welsh

I've seen historians argue both for and against it. Henry VII never spoke anything else than English in court, but according to Rhyp ap Thomas, he did have a habit of using *some* welsh phrases when he was incensed, and most famously ranted about the Warbeck Issue with phrases of Welsh English thrown in. Like Elizabeth I, whose full polygot talents were not unveiled until after her death (no one knew that she knew basic Gaelic and Welsh until after her death when letters in it were found in her handwriting) its possible that he did know it but didn't speak it. And its also possible that he didn't know and simply knew some phrases like most Anglicized Welshmen. Both are possible.

 

[Deleted member 147978]

@RedKing