Its a pretty well known fact that Watchmen was originally written with the Charlton Comics characters in mind, but when DC found out about the final fates of The Question and Peacemaker, they vetoed it, causing Alan Moore to create new characters (though elements of the Charlton characters are still there). If he HAD been allowed to use those characters, how would it have changed Watchmen and the impact it had on comics?
WI: Watchmen featured the Charlton characters?
- Thread starter Hadley
- Start date
Comics in general? Probably not all that much of a difference, unless the
story itself is dramatically different.
The role of Rohrsharch-imitators is easily filled by nigh-identical Question-imitators.
The effect on DC comics and the DC universe, on the other hand, may be considerable - lots of potential butterflies in Blue Beetle not being available/
suitable (for a more comedic role) in Giffen's Justice League.
story itself is dramatically different.
The role of Rohrsharch-imitators is easily filled by nigh-identical Question-imitators.
The effect on DC comics and the DC universe, on the other hand, may be considerable - lots of potential butterflies in Blue Beetle not being available/
suitable (for a more comedic role) in Giffen's Justice League.
No Blue Beetle or Captain Atom in the JLI. That will make the JLA quite different, though Giffen would find someone else for the exact same roll. Also, I suspect there wouldn't be a post-Crisis Question series, and if there is, he'd be at least a little different from the Question we know from those days.
The DCAU question wouldn't exist, which would be a damn shame.
Well yeah, for one thing it would still probably be the original question and not Renee Montoya (unless thats changed since I read comics).
Well yeah, for one thing it would still probably be the original question and not Renee Montoya (unless thats changed since I read comics).
I was referring to the 1980s Question series, which gave Vic Sage a mullet and established that his real name is Charlie Szasz. I don't know much about it, except that this version of the Question is the favorite character of an old friend of mine. Also, last I heard Renee Montoya hadn't been seen in years, and hasn't been mentioned in the DCAU. It's a real shame, because she was one of the best things in the 52 series.
Also, I think the DCAU Question might actually exist ITTL. That version of the Question was inspired by Rorschach, with his signs of mental illness and his belief in conspiracies, only he was made to be much lighter than Rorschach, however. The DCAU (animated) Question's existence would depend on whether DC makes a DCU Question (main comics univers) first, which is still a possibility, but not as likely as I'd like.
I also think a DCU version of Blue Beetle and Captain Atom could still exist, but they'd be too dark for JLI. So, either JLI would be very different, or it wouldn't have those characters.
Also, I think the DCAU Question might actually exist ITTL. That version of the Question was inspired by Rorschach, with his signs of mental illness and his belief in conspiracies, only he was made to be much lighter than Rorschach, however. The DCAU (animated) Question's existence would depend on whether DC makes a DCU Question (main comics univers) first, which is still a possibility, but not as likely as I'd like.
I also think a DCU version of Blue Beetle and Captain Atom could still exist, but they'd be too dark for JLI. So, either JLI would be very different, or it wouldn't have those characters.
Better question is why DC allows it.
They've just spent a bundle on the characters, & Moore is killing them off or rendering them unusable.
If they're not going to be unusable, you don't have Watchmen as we know it.
IMO, you get something nearer Infinity, Inc. Or a JSA reprint book.
It would, OTOH, butterfly the plague of grimdarks from Wolvie to Punisher to Crom knows who.
They've just spent a bundle on the characters, & Moore is killing them off or rendering them unusable.
If they're not going to be unusable, you don't have Watchmen as we know it.
IMO, you get something nearer Infinity, Inc. Or a JSA reprint book.
It would, OTOH, butterfly the plague of grimdarks from Wolvie to Punisher to Crom knows who.
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Really? Damn, I thought they where gonna keep her around as a character in Batwoman or something.
Just for clarification, heres who the watchmen characters were originally supposed to be:
Nite Owl-Blue Beetle
Silk Spectre-Nightshade
Comedian-Peacemaker
Dr. Manhattan-Captain Atom
Rorshach-Question
Ozymandias-Thunderbolt
Of course, now this thread makes me wish that they had bought the rights to E-Man as well (who was also a charlton hero, but at the time, he was owned by independent comics group First Comics).
Nite Owl-Blue Beetle
Silk Spectre-Nightshade
Comedian-Peacemaker
Dr. Manhattan-Captain Atom
Rorshach-Question
Ozymandias-Thunderbolt
Of course, now this thread makes me wish that they had bought the rights to E-Man as well (who was also a charlton hero, but at the time, he was owned by independent comics group First Comics).
Here's something that could be interesting: DC, obviously, owns the Charlton characters. Alan Moore, while he'll have them quite different than their earlier depictions, won't have created them. Ownership of the Watchmen characters is one of the major issues between Moore and DC, since he was due to gain ownership as soon as Watchmen was out of publication for a year - an event that has never, and for the foreseeable future will never occur. ("So basically they're not ours, but if DC is working with the characters in our interests then they might as well be. On the other hand, if the characters have outlived their natural life span and DC doesn't want to do anything with them, then after a year we've got them and we can do what we want with them, which I'm perfectly happy with." Moore, 1986). In this scenario, that whole issue is gone. While Moore still had the same problem with DC over V for Vendetta, and there might be issues with other rights and royalties relating to Watchmen as a series, this could lessen the enmity between Moore and DC. DC treated Moore poorly before and after Watchmen, but I feel like having his most popular and well known work kept from him in this manner aggravated every other issue. So we could see a world where Moore does more with DC over the years.
Punisher and Wolverine were both products of 1974, over a decade before Watchmen. If you mean that it would derail the post-1986 paths of Punisher and Wolverine along with the rest of the grimdarkness, I doubt it. For one thing, Frank Miller is still kicking around - Dark Knight Returns has already completed its run, and along with Watchmen that was one of the major events that gave rise to the "mature" comics that came after. For another, in the posited TL, Watchmen still exists. The characters may be called Blue Beetle instead of Nite Owl, etc., and minor changes may arise due to the use of the Charlton characters, but the general themes and ideas will remain the same. Dark and mature storylines in comics was a rising trend (see also stuff like Vigilante, which ran from 1983 to 1988, and dealt with issues like rape and the fallout of being a murdering 'hero', ending with the titular character committing suicide), and simply changing the names and faces of the cast of Watchmen won't change that.
Me too! She was more interesting than Batwoman. When Batwoman got her own series, she also got a personality, but DC just brushed Renee under the rug.
But on topic, if Alan Moore's on good terms with DC comics, I'm guessing he'd get a very prominent role in the creative process of the company, and there's a slight chance he wouldn't create the America's Best Comics imprint. However, at some point, I imagine he would create original characters and demand full rights to them, so maybe the friendly relationship between Moore and DC wouldn't last.
I think he'd be likely to propose something like those Neopolis stories of his with preestablished characters, and DC would tell him they'd prefer if he did it with original characters, and then the same souring relationship would happen as IOTL, but with a less popular property.
That can only be a good thing.Sicarius said:
You're going to lecture me about them? When I bought their 2d appearances off the rack?Sicarius said:
(Spidey 135 & Hulk 181, both of which I still have.)And would Miller alone have the weight to move Marvel (let alone the entire industry) that direction, without the additional acclaim of Watchmen? I doubt it.Sicarius said:
Which brings me back to my question: how do you do that & keep the characters?Sicarius said:
How much of that was a product of the success of other books? Of "me-too" writing?Sicarius said:
Excuse me for thinking someone saying "it would, OTOH, butterfly the plague of grimdarks from Wolvie to Punisher." meant "it would butterfly Wolverine and Punisher."You're going to lecture me about them? When I bought their 2d appearances off the rack?
Dark Knight Returns was a pretty big deal; nevertheless, I'm not positing a TL where Frank Miller is the only person writing dark comics in this era.
The OP's scenario is what if Moore uses the Charlton characters, not "AHC: How Does Moore Use the Charlton Characters and DC Keeps Them?" so that's what I addressed.
That's generally how trends work.
Since they weren't always like that, I presumed it was clear it was the grimdark aspect I was talking about.Sicarius said:Excuse me for thinking someone saying "it would, OTOH, butterfly the plague of grimdarks from Wolvie to Punisher." meant "it would butterfly Wolverine and Punisher."
And since DC has spent a pretty large amount of money on them, allowing him to throw it away would be pretty stupid, wouldn't it?Sicarius said:
So, either Watchmen is dramatically different to accommodate DC, or the characters are OTL.I'm sure the characters would bear some more resemblance to the Charlton ones if Moore hadn't been required to make them original characters, but I think the characters could have been as screwed up as our Watchmen were. DC didn't want them like that because DC was worried about being unable to use them for anything else, but perhaps DC could have thought that this will be the only thing they'll use these Charlton characters for anyway.
What do you mean by an Infinity Inc treatment? Something less grim? Something involving children of the Charlton characters? A recurring series in a parallel world? Something somewhat more closely based on the old continuity?
And I also think that what they wanted was what they got. I meant that it would have been easy for an alternate DC to want something different, thereby making Moore's Watchmen with Charlton characters appealing.
And I also think that what they wanted was what they got. I meant that it would have been easy for an alternate DC to want something different, thereby making Moore's Watchmen with Charlton characters appealing.
Better question is why DC allows it.
They've just spent a bundle on the characters, & Moore is killing them off or rendering them unusable.
If they're not going to be unusable, you don't have Watchmen as we know it.
IMO, you get something nearer Infinity, Inc. Or a JSA reprint book.
It would, OTOH, butterfly the plague of grimdarks from Wolvie to Punisher to Crom knows who.
In comics it's not by any means unusual for characters to have often-contradictory story arcs that are then explained away as an alternate reality or by the obvious reason of it being a side story or something. I imagine that their issue was more that they had something in mind for the characters in a forseeable future that didn't match up with The Watchmen or (mostly) that fans could end up disliking or being disappointed in their favourite characters if they acted like the ones in The Watchmen.
I'm not sure what it means for the Charlton characters but I assume this would mean that the story of The Watchmen would be less intricate if Moore was working with established characters with their own canon backgrounds. I believe that the nature of the story was part of DC's objections but not having to use pre-existent characters might have given him even more freedom in writing.
With the Charlton characters, the story would be more concise as Charlton lacks Golden Age characters. Once you eliminate the Minute Men and the origins, you only have six issues or less of story. The loss of this greater world might lessen the impact on those not familiar with Charlton. People might see it as just another cool story by Moore.
"Crisis" had only finished six months before "Watchmen" came out. It also premiered in September, "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" appeared the same month. If the story wasn't to be re-written, it may have come out sooner. Either way, it would probably be viewed as the closing chapter on Earth-4. Outside of delaying the "Blue Beetle" title for a year, I don't think it would effect the introduction of the DC versions.
Found these on the Comics on Crisis blog.
"Crisis" had only finished six months before "Watchmen" came out. It also premiered in September, "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" appeared the same month. If the story wasn't to be re-written, it may have come out sooner. Either way, it would probably be viewed as the closing chapter on Earth-4. Outside of delaying the "Blue Beetle" title for a year, I don't think it would effect the introduction of the DC versions.
Found these on the Comics on Crisis blog.