WI: Vikings conquer West Francia?

[SinghKing]

Carrying over from this thread: I've been reading up on this relatively obscure Viking warrior from the late 9th century, Hastein, and I'm just wondering- which POD, involving the events surrounding this man, looks like it'd be the promising to pursue in an ATL?

Little is known of Hastein's early life, described as a Dane in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, often given as a son of Ragnar Lodbrok. He is first recorded taking part in the Viking attack on the Frankish Empire, occupying Noirmoutier in 843 and on the Loire again, in 859, before his great raid into the Mediterranean- setting out with Björn Ironside, another son of Ragnar Lodbrok with 62 ships from the Loire- only 20 of which returned, but with sufficient plunder to make both him and Björn Ironside wealthy for the rest of their lives. Settling back in Brittany, Hastein allied himself with Salomon, King of Brittany against the Franks in 866, and as part of a Viking-Breton army, he killed himself Robert the Strong at the Battle of Brissarthe near Châteauneuf-sur-Sarthe.

After this battle, Charles the Bald entered negotiations with Salomon and recognised him as King of Brittany, conceding the Cotentin and possibly the Avranchin to the Bretons; and Hastein continued to ravage the Loire Valley for many years, proceeding to ravage Bourges in 867 and Orléans in 868. In 870, he seized Angers, where he settled until a successful siege temporarily displaced him- returning in early 872 to lead a Viking fleet up the Maine and re-occupy Angers, which led to a siege by the Frankish king Charles the Bald, and a peace eventually being agreed in October 873. Hastein remained in the Loire country until 882, when he was finally expelled and then relocated his army north to the Seine. There he stayed until the Franks consolidated their hold on Paris and his territory in the Picardy was threatened. It was at this point that he became one of many experienced Vikings to look to England for riches and plunder. He is identified with the Jarl (Lord) Hasting who held the Channel Islands for a while, and was already described as "the lusty and terrifying old warrior of the Loire and the Somme", when he arrived in England.

Hastein first crossed to England from Boulogne in 892 leading one of two great companies. His army, the smaller of the two, landed in 80 ships and occupied the royal village of Milton in Kent, whilst his allies landed at Appledore with 250 ships. Alfred the Great positioned the West Saxon army between them to keep them from uniting, the result of which was that Hastein agreed terms, including allowing his two sons to be baptised, and left Kent for Essex. The larger army attempted to reunite with Hastein after raiding Hampshire and Berkshire in the late spring of 893, but was defeated at Farnham by an army under Prince Edward, Alfred's son. The survivors eventually reached Hastein's army at Mersea Island, after a combined West Saxon and Mercian army failed to dislodge them from their fortress at Thorney.

The result left Hastein in command of a formidable Danish army at his fortified camp (or burh) at Benfleet in Essex, where he combined the men and ships from Appledore and Milton. He set out on a raid in Mercia, but whilst the main army was away the garrison was defeated by the bolstered militia of eastern Wessex. The West Saxons captured the fort, along with the ships, booty, women and children. This was a major blow for Hastein, who had lost his wife and sons in the loss of Benfleet. He re-established his combined force at a new fort at Shoebury further north in Essex, and received reinforcements from the Danish Kingdom of East Anglia and the Scandinavian Kingdom of York. He also had his two sons returned to him since Alfred and Athelred had stood sponsor at their baptism early in 893.

Next, Hastein launched his men on a savage retaliatory raid along the Thames valley then up the River Severn. It was pursued all the way by Aethelred of Mercia and a combined Mercian and West Saxon army, reinforced by a contingent of warriors from the Welsh kingdoms. Eventually the Viking army was trapped on the island of Buttingham on the Severn near Welshpool, but they fought their way out several weeks later, and lost many men, and returned to the fortress at Shoebury. In late summer 893, Hastein's men struck out again. First they wisely moved all their booty, women and ships in East Anglia, and after being reinforced marched to Chester to occupy the ruined Roman fortress. The refortified fortress should have made an excellent base for raiding northern Mercia, but the Mercians took the drastic Scorched earth measure of destroying all crops and livestock in the surrounding countryside to starve the Danes out.

In the autumn the besieged army left Chester, marched down to the south of Wales and devastated the Welsh kingdoms of Brycheiniog, Gwent and Glywysing until the summer of 894. They return via Northumbria, the Danish held midlands of the Five Burghs, and East Anglia to return to the fort at Mersea Island. In the autumn of 894, the army towed their ships up the Thames to a new fort on the River Lea. In the summer of 895 Alfred arrived with the West Saxon army, and obstructed the course of the Lea with a fort either side of the river. The Danes abandoned their camp, returned their woman to East Anglia and made another great march across the Midlands to a site on the Severn (where Bridgnorth now stands), followed all the way by hostile forces. There they stayed until the spring of 896, when the army finally dispersed into East Anglia, Northumbria and the Seine, and Hastein disappeared from history.

Would it have been plausible for Hastein to have effectively filled the role which Rollo would later fill IOTL (founder and first ruler of the Viking dynasty which become known as TTL's 'Normans', albeit roughly a generation earlier)? By pledging feudal allegiance to the king, changing his name to the Frankish version, and converting to Christianity, in return for the West Francian King granting Hastein sovereignty over his own kingdom (either corresponding to Upper Normandy, if this happens after 882, or to Anjou & Loire-Atlantique, if Charles the Bald decides to resolve Hastein's occupation of Angers in 873 differently)?

Or simply by conquering the lands by force, after Charles the Bald gets mortally wounded during the siege, and the Kingdom of West Francia simply splinters apart- as it did IOTL after his death, where the individual territories were able to gain independence and started to form their own centres of administration, gaining virtual, and soon after that, full independence. The County of Barcelona, Aquitaine, Brittany, Burgundy, Flanders, Gascony, Gothia (Septimania), the Île-de-France, Poitou and Toulouse- in name they were fiefs of the French King, but in reality they were all totally independent. In such a scenario, could West Francia have been potentially been permanently balkanised, and OTL's Kingdom of France potentially never come into existence (with the fall of the Marquis of Neustria to the Vikings disempowering the Robertians, ensuring that they never become a royal dynasty- and by extension, preventing the Capetian, Valois, Bourbon and Bandenburg dynasties from ever existing ITTL)?

 

[Tonifranz]

I have a question. Except for Barcelona, why didn't those principalities formally declare themselves independent and cast off even nominal lip service sovereignty to the King of France when the French monachy was as its weakest? If they did so, there was no way that any king of France can regain any sort of authority, since their success in OTL depended so much on their position as feudal overlords. Even when they were kings of England, the more powerful Dukes of Normandy and Acquitaine still made homage to the King of France. Why didn't the King of England simply declare himself sovereign over his French territory?

Since even nominal and lip service acknowledgement had a lot of consequences, and the Kings of West Francia/ France took advantage of it to regain their actual authority.

 

[SinghKing]

I have a question. Except for Barcelona, why didn't those principalities formally declare themselves independent and cast off even nominal lip service sovereignty to the King of France when the French monachy was as its weakest? If they did so, there was no way that any king of France can regain any sort of authority, since their success in OTL depended so much on their position as feudal overlords.

Since even nominal and lip service acknowledgement had a lot of consequences, and the Kings of West Francia/ France took advantage of it to regain their actual authority.

Because they were still nominally part of the Carolingian Empire at this stage, and the King of West Francia, Charles the Bald, held the title of Holy Roman Emperor (from 875 until his death in 877, after the POD, which served to re-unify them to a degree). And these principalities would still nominally be part of the Carolingian Empire until its definite dissolution in 887.

After this, they did go their separate ways- Count Odo of Paris was elected King of Western Francia (which would later grow to become OTL's France- but he wouldn't be eligible any more if Hastein holds on to his chosen capital of Angers, and dispossesses him of his title as Marquis of Neustria), Ranulf II became King of Aquitaine (and Count of Poitou), Upper Burgundy went to Rudolph I, and Lower Burgundy went to Louis the Blind (the son of Boso of Arles, King of Lower Burgundy and maternal grandson of the Italian Emperor Louis II). The other part of Lotharingia became the duchy of Burgundy; and most of the others- Barcelona (Catalonia), Brittany, Flanders, Gascony (Basque Country), Gothia and Toulouse (Occitania), did all become independent kingdoms, many of them remaining independent for centuries.

But without the Robertian Dynasty and their lineages, could anyone else have been capable of reviving and reunifying West Francia to form 'France' ITTL? Or would it have ended up as a tenuous patchwork quilt of smaller sub-units, principalities, duchies, counties, Free Imperial Cities, and other domains, akin to those in the Holy Roman Empire IOTL- eventually breaking apart in the same manner, perhaps with several of them remaining independent to the present day? And how profoundly would this affect the course of history?

 

[Tonifranz]

The other part of Lotharingia became the duchy of Burgundy; and most of the others- Barcelona (Catalonia), Brittany, Flanders, Gascony (Basque Country), Gothia and Toulouse (Occitania), did all become independent kingdoms, many of them remaining independent for centuries.

Other than Barcelona, they were never de jure or formally independent. De facto yes, but they still paid lip service to the West Frankish monarchy. They still went and paid homage to the King, even if they would utterly ignore him after that. Even Brittany, briefly a de jure independent kingdom, soon reverted to a duchy in which the duke gave homage to the King, like Duke Alan paying homage to Louis IV in 942, and when hi dynasty went out, it went to a Capetian cadet branch.

Then of course they paid homage to the Duke of Normandy, who of course, paid homage to the King of France, so ultimate, the ultimate sovereign in Brittany, even if only theoretical, is the King of France.

So to conclude, even if they called themselves kingdoms, they did not formally renounced allegiance to the West Frankish, later French, monarchy. They all acknowledged the Carolingian, and later Capetian, king. Of course, for all practical purposes they were independent in all but name, but that name, that theoretical superiority of the West Frankish monarchy, is very important, as it is the foundation for the revival of royal power in the future.

 

[SinghKing]

I'm sorry, but other than Barcelona, they were never de jure or formally independent. De facto yes, but they still paid lip service to the West Frankish monarchy. They still went and paid homage to the King, even if they would utterly ignore him after that. Even Brittany, briefly a de jure independent kingdom, soon reverted to a duchy in which the duke gave homage to the King, like Duke Alan paying homage to Louis IV in 942, and when hi dynasty went out, it went to a Capetian cadet branch.

Then of course they paid homage to the Duke of Normandy, who of course, paid homage to the King of France, so ultimate, the ultimate sovereign in Brittany, even if only theoretical, is the King of France.

So to conclude, even if they called themselves kingdoms, they did not formally renounced allegiance to the West Frankish, later French, monarchy. They all acknowledged the Carolingian, and later Capetian, king. Of course, for all practical purposes they were independent in all but name, but that name, that theoretical superiority of the West Frankish monarchy, is very important, as it is the foundation for the revival of royal power in the future.

And when the French branch of the Carolingian dynasty goes extinct, with the Capetian dynasty never having come into existence ITTL? Would someone else still have been capable of building upon that (considerably weakened) foundation? And if so, how long would they take? Could the unification of TTL's France more closely resemble the unifications of Germany or Italy IOTL?

 

[Tonifranz]

And when the French branch of the Carolingian dynasty goes extinct, with the Capetian dynasty never having come into existence ITTL? Would someone else still have been capable of building upon that (considerably weakened) foundation? And if so, how long would they take? Could the unification of TTL's France more closely resemble the unifications of Germany or Italy IOTL?

It depends if this dynasty would last. One of the strengths of the Capetians is that unbroken father son succession from 987 to 1316. Contrast that to the East, where during the same time, we have the Ottonians, the Salians, the Hohenstaufens, the Welfs, etc. holding the German throne.

Their longevity (they still exist today) meant that each generation where able to build upon their predecessors, and that meant that to benefit the family would benefit the crown. And it made the crown from de facto to de jure hereditary.

If the new dynasty lasts in the male line, and were not too ambitious at first, they should be able to piece by piece, generation by generation, rebuild the kingdom. Of course, butterflies are enourmous.

But if the dynasty dies off after two or three generations, then all bets are off.