WI US / British War of 1837?

MerryPrankster said:
If an incompetent Brit is in charge when war breaks out, things could go very badly for them.

IIRC, the OC Canada in 1837 was Sir Maurice Colborne, who had been commander of the 51st Light Infantry at Waterloo, and was really the bloke who saw the chance for a flank enfilade and basically caused the Old Guard to break ... so no, he wasn't incompetant
 
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Saladin said:
IIRC, the OC Canada in 1837 was Sir Maurice Colborne, who had been commander of the 51st Light Infantry at Waterloo, and was really the bloke who saw the chance for a flank enfilade and basically caused the Old Guard to break ... so no, he wasn't incompetant

Sir John Colborne was his name.
 
OK, stop. I think sane people will agree that Britain can win* the war easily.
*As in, get concessions, not annexing it back outright.
I see northern-most NY, and Niagara being chopped off, as with Detroit. Perhaps Maine, or bits of it. Also, maybe that part of Michigan which is cut off from the mainland.
The main thing here is post-war. British-American relations are soured indefinetly, and as such Germany will get more support in any Great War conflict. Also, Americans will try to be a little more imperialistic* maybe, trying to top the Brits. However, at the same time Mexico will get key British support, so the U.S.'s chances of winning the Mex-American War are lowered. The Oregon Territory probably won't fall into American hands until later, also hurting their chances in the Pacific. Russia, Japan will probably be more prevailent here.
*or they'll shrink inward
The Civil War, which may or may not happen, will probably see at least paltry British support, a thing the U.S.A won't like. Their influence over Canada will dimish.
Amazing how 5 pages went by and no one has gotten past the war.
 
Does this push Canada into joining the US somehow? If so, this could be a veyr long war as Britain will have to push in from Quebec (Hey French! Fight with us Americans and gain independence, we'll even toss in Labrador!), Nova Scotia, or the Caribbean. They could start raiding plantations and liberating slaves to toss in a moral issue as a try to divide the Americans but if the North and South are united in their hatred of the UK it might not be enough. Interestingly Colt is getting ready to patent his first pistol and this might accelerate American firearms development. With the Cherokee still in control of northern Georgia/eastern Tennessee the UK might try to use them to an advantage as well.

My Overall Guess: Assuming it stays contained to UK/US our navy is largely destroyed or rendered ineffective by the UK but the land campaign takes too long, by 1840 we're in tough straits as British invasions claim several areas though encountering fierce guerilla resistance. Perhaps if Canada stays British, they take southernmost Florida, most of Maine, peninsular Michigan, and modern Washington State's coast, we lose Maine and perhaps peninsular Michigan but little else. We become much more militant and the Civil War is delayed by mutual hatred of the British and the thought of them manipulating one side or another. The war becomes unpopular in UK, this might work to our advantage especially if there's lots of bloodshed and we could get a reprieve and lose only Maine. Should Canada decides to rebel and join the US or form their own country (under Mackenzie?) things take much longer with potential status quo antebellum. I doubt we gain anything unless we buy it outright as part of the treaty or if the UK is rushed to settlement by discord at home, and then we don't gain much unless Canada joins us by their own accord.
 
OK, stop. I think sane people will agree that Britain can win* the war easily.
*As in, get concessions, not annexing it back outright.
I see northern-most NY, and Niagara being chopped off, as with Detroit. Perhaps Maine, or bits of it. Also, maybe that part of Michigan which is cut off from the mainland.
The main thing here is post-war. British-American relations are soured indefinetly, and as such Germany will get more support in any Great War conflict. Also, Americans will try to be a little more imperialistic* maybe, trying to top the Brits. However, at the same time Mexico will get key British support, so the U.S.'s chances of winning the Mex-American War are lowered. The Oregon Territory probably won't fall into American hands until later, also hurting their chances in the Pacific. Russia, Japan will probably be more prevailent here.
*or they'll shrink inward
The Civil War, which may or may not happen, will probably see at least paltry British support, a thing the U.S.A won't like. Their influence over Canada will dimish.
Amazing how 5 pages went by and no one has gotten past the war.
Any concessions made by the U.S. to Britain will be in the West. My prediction is that the U.S. loses its istakess in the Oregon Country, as well as everything west of Lake Superior, and north of 45 degrees lattitude.
 

67th Tigers

Banned
How substantial?

And given that the UK starting available forces are bigger than the US and that the UK has a bigger population (and economy and industry) I would back them to be able to field the bigger army.


In 1838, the British Dispositions were

England and Scotland: 5 Infantry Brigades (15 Bns) and 4 Cavalry Brigades (12 Regiments)
Ireland: 5 Infantry Brigades (14 Bns) and 2 Cavalry Brigades (6 Regiments)

Canada and the Maritimes: 6 Infantry Brigades (18 Infantry Bns) and a Cavalry Brigade (2 Regiments)

Bermuda and the Caribean: 16 Infantry Bns (3 Brigade HQs)

Mediterranian: 5 Brigade HQs (16 Infantry Bns)

Cape Colony: 1 Infantry Brigade (3 Bns)

India
Bengal: 8 Infantry and 3 Cavalry
Bombay: 1 Infantry and 1 Cavalry
Madras: 8 Infantry and 1 Cavalry
Ceylon: 5 Infantry

Australia
New South Wales: 1 Brigade (4 Bns)
Van Dietmans Land: 1 Bn

http://www.geocities.com/littlegreenmen.geo/1838.htm
 
Here's a 2006 political map showing what the US might lose a postwar situation around 1840, the UK takes two or all of the areas assuming Canada does not join the US in the war. If they do, it might be status quo antebellum w/ Canada potentially joining the US as States and the UK selling the Hudson's Bay area for a tidy sum.

Postwar 1837.GIF
 
Seems far too lenient.

The British are going to take all of Oregon right off the bat, the Americans have no real claim and the area was jointly administered.

The Americans won't be able to win any battles there to make a claim so everything west of the Rockies is gone.

The border in Maine is more likely to follow the Penobscot rather than take the entire area.

The 49N boundary is also likely to come in for serious reconsideration, Minnesota is unsettled at this point as is everything west of Minnesota.

Wisconsin has 30,000 people in 1840 (so even less here) and Iowa has 43,000.

Wisconsin has only 5,000 people living above the Wisconsin river in 1840 and probably none at this point.

Iowa has nobody living above the 43N and only about 5,000 living above 42N.

The ideal border for the British here is to follow the green bay the the Wisconsin river then follow the Mississippi down to 42N and then Westwards until you hit the Mexican border.

The 43N also offer an idea because it is almost exactly where the Wisconsin river joins the Mississippi, this could be followed to Missouri (or the Great Sioux just above it) and followed down to the Platte and use that to go to the Mexican border.

The first border lands less than 10,000 on the wrong side and the second less than 5,000.

Both are easily justifiable, in fact taking all of Wisconsin only adds another 25,000.
 
Seems far too lenient.

The British are going to take all of Oregon right off the bat, the Americans have no real claim and the area was jointly administered.

The Americans won't be able to win any battles there to make a claim so everything west of the Rockies is gone.

The border in Maine is more likely to follow the Penobscot rather than take the entire area.

The 49N boundary is also likely to come in for serious reconsideration, Minnesota is unsettled at this point as is everything west of Minnesota.

Wisconsin has 30,000 people in 1840 (so even less here) and Iowa has 43,000.

Wisconsin has only 5,000 people living above the Wisconsin river in 1840 and probably none at this point.

Iowa has nobody living above the 43N and only about 5,000 living above 42N.

The ideal border for the British here is to follow the green bay the the Wisconsin river then follow the Mississippi down to 42N and then Westwards until you hit the Mexican border.

The 43N also offer an idea because it is almost exactly where the Wisconsin river joins the Mississippi, this could be followed to Missouri (or the Great Sioux just above it) and followed down to the Platte and use that to go to the Mexican border.

The first border lands less than 10,000 on the wrong side and the second less than 5,000.

Both are easily justifiable, in fact taking all of Wisconsin only adds another 25,000.

UK has other problems to deal with: Ireland, Chartist Movement/Riots, Opium War, Anti-Corn Law Riots, and debates over the use of the Dardanelles with France, Russia, etc. I figure a war with the US would only escalate these and prevent the UK from dominating the peace talks, especially if there are large numbers of casualties and the poor of Britain feel they're being marginalized. Never mind the potential for Irish troubles that could sap large numbers of troops in addition to domestic riots. The cabinet in 1837-1839 might also be able to come to the table if the Canadian secretary resigns and the US makes minor concessions, he wasn't particularly popular and blamed for heavyhandedness there during his tenure.
 
Well with these troubles in Upper and Lower Canada might Great Britain not hold off on Declaring war on U.S. over the Texas question in the first place. Small as the armed conflicts in upper/lower Canada were according to the wiki it just seems more prudent.

Its not like them to not put their own house in order first irregardless of ambitions in Mexico.

As someone said earlier it is a lot more interesting what happens after the war. Which is eitheir going to result in minor territorial readjustments (Not that those areas arent important its just in the over all context of the landmass of Canada or the United States). But how it effects the relations between both nations as events progress outward from 1837.

I mean there were a few people in the Navy who were still upset about joining the Allies in WW1 because of the war of 1812.

Add another one in the 1840's and well assuming that the rough development of the involved area's are not butterflied away (Social and political pressures which lead to the Civil War are still likely to occur). International econoomic investment in the U.S. is still likely to occur (After all War's are the affair of prince's. As long as investing in U.S. industry is going to make a profit. Private investors in London will continue to do so dispite the political climate, as we have seen throughout the modern era).

Now the real question is wether the losing side of the conflict ever makes a play for a war of revenge in the late 1800's or early 1900's.

Now some have proposed that such a defeat in 1837 could lead to a sundering of the Entire West Coast etc. I respect your right to propose that but I just don't see it. Even if the area's are legally declared another country that makes about as much sense to me as if the British had invalidated the Lousiana Purchase would have stopped western migration. Indians still would have been pushed out (largely by the efforts squatters, Non-government armed bands etc). Certaintly the British Army could crush any of these that they wanted too. The thing is are the British going to want to pay for it? Redcoats cost money. Food supplies, forts, etc and if you are expelling settlers infavor of supporting the native tribes there your not going to be making any money on the enterprise.

The British Empire was many things altruistic was not one of them.

As for the outcome of the War of 1837 I feel it comes down too what kind of a war it is. Total War just USA against the British Empire? Long bloody and British Resources winout eventually. Limited War? depends on who's commanding the British Expeditionary. And if they attack down from Canada or fight from Mexico in a limited war its worse if they do both. (after all the issue of the war is Texas not Canada while Canada will likely be attacked in retaliation they can't say 'We're here to help you Mexico and then never set foot in Mexico').

Also in a Limited War they might just stick to fighting from Mexico. They are astute enough to know of the regional divisions between North and South in the U.S. if the war gets billed as a Southern war of Slavery that will hamstring the U.S. in fighting it. Also if they attack from Canada its just going to make that really long border hostile. Which longterm they know is going to be expensive to garrison as whiping the U.S. off the map is not part of their war agenda, Their goal is to prevent Texas annexation.

Now fighting from Mexico? Again depends who's commanding the expeditionary force. Britain's navy is going to rule the wave's. Raiders are going to annoy them but not hurt them. At the peace table Mexico definitely gets a better deal.

Now I keep saying from Mexico and your probably all like 'but Texas is independent already' Oh yeah....US and British Empire is at war and Mexico is NOT going to jump in. Dispite having a dispute over their border with Texas.

Them staying out is not going to happen.

As its been stated however the British Empire has its hands in a lot of pie's right now that quite frankly are more important. if the Expeditionary force it sends happens to have a less then stellar general. the U.S. is likely going to end up with most of their gains from Mexico per OTL.

If the British General is better the desire to end things quickly is going to leave Texas independent (dependent on Britain not the U.S.). A border readjustment infavor of Mexico against Texas and that will be the end of it. Maybe the Oregon adjustment but if the leaders in Oregon had decided to just sit it out and see what happened might be nothing there.

This leave's the least amount of room for a revenge war. Texas was not U.S. Territory so its not going to promote the level of hate of biting off other chunks of the U.S. would. Texas is still independent and a republic (Some idiot will likely claim it a draw with an obsurd idea that the British were going to appoint a Monarch but the U.S. would have fought on if they did).

Oh and why aren't I talking about the Canadian front? *shrugs* if you insist...ok some guy said it was a matter of marching really lame slapdash invasion of Canada and the Canadian/British fight it off. Cue indecisive skirmish's for the rest of the war.
 
UK has other problems to deal with: Ireland, Chartist Movement/Riots, Opium War, Anti-Corn Law Riots, and debates over the use of the Dardanelles with France, Russia, etc. I figure a war with the US would only escalate these and prevent the UK from dominating the peace talks, especially if there are large numbers of casualties and the poor of Britain feel they're being marginalized. Never mind the potential for Irish troubles that could sap large numbers of troops in addition to domestic riots. The cabinet in 1837-1839 might also be able to come to the table if the Canadian secretary resigns and the US makes minor concessions, he wasn't particularly popular and blamed for heavyhandedness there during his tenure.

Yes and during the Napoleonic wars the luddites marauded about and the Irish had a full-scale uprising, it still didn't alter the fact that Britain won.

The US winning or even getting a pseudo draw in these situations always relies on Britain fighting with one hand tied behind it's back and I don't think they would.

It doesn't really matter if Britain wins battles enough to stake a claim to the Michigan Upper Peninsula they gain pretty much everything West of that point by default because it is unsettled and thus the Britsih have won the battle for possession of the area.

In any case you had they taking 1/2 million US citizens which seems a lot more difficult to negotiate than just taking some Indian filled unsettled land.

Your division of Oregon territory makes absolutely zero sense since it is quite clear that it is self contained area past the Rockies and the British gain control there by default.
 
Now some have proposed that such a defeat in 1837 could lead to a sundering of the Entire West Coast etc. I respect your right to propose that but I just don't see it.

Well the West coats isn't really the US to surrender, it is jointly administered with the territory being filled with British factories and British allied Indians.

Anybody taking a look at the peace conference can't make a valid US claim to it.

Even if the area's are legally declared another country that makes about as much sense to me as if the British had invalidated the Lousiana Purchase would have stopped western migration.

I don't follow the argument, you say it is unlikely because something else unrelated was unlikely.

Could you please explain why the initial statement is unlikely.

Indians still would have been pushed out (largely by the efforts squatters, Non-government armed bands etc).

Why?

The British can arm the Indians and establish a fort on the edge of the territory to turn away settlers, those that continue in are left at the mercy of the British backed Indians.

They aren't going to have the protection of the cavalry here unless the British decide they want them in the territory and that means small groups can be delat with by the Indians piece meal.

However the British might just settle it with their won people or even just let Americans in, large parts of Canda sure American settlement and despite American hopes they didn't really seem to care what flag they lived under.

Certaintly the British Army could crush any of these that they wanted too. The thing is are the British going to want to pay for it? Redcoats cost money. Food supplies, forts, etc and if you are expelling settlers infavor of supporting the native tribes there your not going to be making any money on the enterprise.

The Hudson bay company was primarily interested in making money and they also favoured trade with the natives over settlement.

Limited War? depends on who's commanding the British Expeditionary. And if they attack down from Canada or fight from Mexico in a limited war its worse if they do both. (after all the issue of the war is Texas not Canada while Canada will likely be attacked in retaliation they can't say 'We're here to help you Mexico and then never set foot in Mexico').

Well what the war is about isn't exactly clear from the opening post, really the idea of Britain fighting a war to prevent Texas and the US unifying is bordering on ASB.

Also in a Limited War they might just stick to fighting from Mexico.

They can't because the US won't refrain from attacking Canada and because they already have a ready reserve of troops in Canada which will surge forward to gain territory that gives Canada a better defensive position.

Now I keep saying from Mexico and your probably all like 'but Texas is independent already' Oh yeah....US and British Empire is at war and Mexico is NOT going to jump in. Dispite having a dispute over their border with Texas.

Mexico will most likely jump in if the issue is Texas because their treaty with Texas forbade Texas form joining another nation.

As its been stated however the British Empire has its hands in a lot of pie's right now that quite frankly are more important. if the Expeditionary force it sends happens to have a less then stellar general. the U.S. is likely going to end up with most of their gains from Mexico per OTL.


Wildly implausible, in OTL they invade California and made their main effort against Texas by sea, that option is cut off from them.

If the British General is better the desire to end things quickly is going to leave Texas independent (dependent on Britain not the U.S.).

The problem there is that the British have essentially got to hold Texas down for the rest of eternity.

Maybe the Oregon adjustment but if the leaders in Oregon had decided to just sit it out and see what happened might be nothing there.

The joint administration would be terminated by the very act of declaring war, after that the company doesn't have to do much but tell the Indians to have some fun against the barely present Americans (I doubt even that would be necessary), hell the centre of American "power" in the area was Astor, a place that was staffed almost entirely by French Canadians.

Oh and why aren't I talking about the Canadian front? *shrugs* if you insist...ok some guy said it was a matter of marching really lame slapdash invasion of Canada and the Canadian/British fight it off. Cue indecisive skirmish's for the rest of the war.

The Britsih had more regulars in Canada than he Americans had regulars, such an "invasion" would be beaten off well within US territory.
 
Why do British vs USA threads always fall into cliches.

It always starts with a quick going over of the various forces. The conclusion is always the same. RN invincible (give or take), military forces about equal but the British have far greater financial and industrial backing. This declines as the war moves closer to the 20th century.

So having decided Britain will probably win the war there is a quick run down of possibilities to ensure Britain cannot actually make any attempt to win the war. This varies from
A) The USA somehow blockades food shipments the world over and Britain collapses due to the price of grain (for the British) rising a bit. Sure the entire US economy dies (it will suffer anyway from the blockade) but they can somehow carry on regardless.
B) The British suffer rebellions the world over. The Irish! The Indians! Those pesky French suddenly rise up and attack Britain for some inexplicable reason! Again this doesn't appear very likely and almost no situation barring a full on European war is really going to really reduce British power in the Americas but no matter.
C) The British are all deeply opposed to a war which isn't really likely to effect the public more than the imperial expansion currently occuring the world over. Ofcourse the USA is all politically unified to a man despite any losses and every single one is willing to fight and die in the service of the flag. Not much needs to be said how unlikely this is.

Eventually the conclusion comes about that barring an extremely (un)fortunate and highly implausable expansion of the war to something unseen in the 19th century the British will have more than enough resources to win.

Which brings us to the final bit. Having decided that the British will win and in all likelyhood win big, people somehow feel compelled to let the USA off effectively scot free.
This occurs because either
A) The USA must under all circumstances spread from sea to shining sea. Anything less is considered to border on the implausable if not out and out ASB. Breaking out the Luther, justification by faith alone. Sure much of the continent is barely populated and the East Coast is effectively an island for most of this period but the British cannot possibly want any land.
This is obviously rubbish.. but its not quite as bad as

B) The British don't make permanent foes. Due to this any conclusion is to be near enough a white peace regardless of the actual result. The reason the British won't claim chunks of American held land is due to the extremely high costs in holding it and the fact that sooner or later the USA will almost certainly be in a position to reclaim areas of high population. This is not the case with the East Coast untill deep into the 19th century and with the Rockies offering a barrier to land invasions argueably not even then. You may have an issue with British industry failing in the latter 19th early 20th century, but this isn't predestined either and the USA may well have moved beyond wanting the East Coast by the time they actually have the capability to make an attempt to claim it. Perhaps the area may have reached a population density large enough to make attempts at out right annexation difficult. Who can say?

Regardless.. anything is better than
C) The British will not possibly make demands on the USA because its a well known fact in 19th century circles that at some point in the early 20th century the British will find themselves in a hard fought war with Germany (that geographical expression somewhere between France and Austria if your not sure) and with a hostile USA will surely be doomed. Even if this isn't offered as a direct reason, the assumption that such a war is an inevitable concequence wih a PoD somewhere the better part of a century earlier is simply madness.

There is obviously some occasional justification for these claims but by and large they come up every time and are dealt with the same every time. Its almost as predestined for the USA to go from coast to coast as it is for France to have A-L returned at some point post the Franco-Prussian war.
 

Great post, truly superb.


Even if this isn't offered as a direct reason, the assumption that such a war is an inevitable concequence wih a PoD somewhere the better part of a century earlier is simply madness.

The reason for this is that those posting in favour of the US believe that justice must be served, so if Britain does win (which any reasonable person has to admit they will, eventually after some cajoling and evidence) then the only possible conclusion is that America has the last laugh when the Germans cause trouble.
 
Yes and during the Napoleonic wars the luddites marauded about and the Irish had a full-scale uprising, it still didn't alter the fact that Britain won.

The US winning or even getting a pseudo draw in these situations always relies on Britain fighting with one hand tied behind it's back and I don't think they would.

It doesn't really matter if Britain wins battles enough to stake a claim to the Michigan Upper Peninsula they gain pretty much everything West of that point by default because it is unsettled and thus the Britsih have won the battle for possession of the area.

In any case you had they taking 1/2 million US citizens which seems a lot more difficult to negotiate than just taking some Indian filled unsettled land.

Your division of Oregon territory makes absolutely zero sense since it is quite clear that it is self contained area past the Rockies and the British gain control there by default.

And the British took quite some time to defeat Napolean, I doubt this war would last >3 years *if* it stays contained to US/UK. My division of Oregon follows the Columbia River and stays along 49 degrees for the remainder of the border to the Great Lakes, it very nearly became the border in OTL. I also don't see the UK taking anything south of 46/47N (Duluth MN) unless the UK overruns us entirely, we'd not allow that except in total defeat. We also supply our own food, a war causes supply lines and likely higher prices for Britain which is already facing riots over the Corn Laws.
 
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