WI: Union of the British and German Crowns in 1901?

[British Republic]

As you know in OTL, the death of Queen Victoria of Great Britain and Ireland let to her oldest son Albert Edward to become King Edward VII.

But what if that was not the case, what if (some reason or another) Albert Edward, Alfred (who died in 1900 in OTL), Arthur and Leopold (who died in 1884 in OTL) are no longer alive by the time Queen Victoria passes away in 22 January 1901 (I assume that the butterflies do not change the date of her passing)?

This would mean her eldest daughter Victoria (Empress of Germany/Queen of Prussia) would become Queen of Great Britain and Ireland/Empress of India. However she passed away in OTL on 5 August 1901 (again I doubt the butterflies do not change the date of her passing).

This would mean the British Crown would pass to her oldest son Frederick William Victor Albert, otherwise known as Wilhelm II of Germany (or Laiser Wilhelm)

Thus there would be a union of the crowns between Britain and its Empire and Germany and its Empire.

How would British-German relations work out?

Is WW1 butterflied?

What happens afterward right up to 2014?

Note: If he does become King of Britain and Ireland, he would most likely be known as King William V of Great Britain and Ireland

 

[Saphroneth]

As you know in OTL, the death of Queen Victoria of Great Britain and Ireland let to her oldest son Albert Edward to become King Edward VII.

But what if that was not the case, what if (some reason or another) Albert Edward, Alfred (who died in 1900 in OTL), Arthur and Leopold (who died in 1884 in OTL) are no longer alive by the time Queen Victoria passes away in 22 January 1901 (I assume that the butterflies do not change the date of her passing)?

This would mean her eldest daughter Victoria (Empress of Germany/Queen of Prussia) would become Queen of Great Britain and Ireland/Empress of India. However she passed away in OTL on 5 August 1901 (again I doubt the butterflies do not change the date of her passing).

This would mean the British Crown would pass to her oldest son Frederick William Victor Albert, otherwise known as Wilhelm II of Germany (or Laiser Wilhelm)

Thus there would be a union of the crowns between Britain and its Empire and Germany and its Empire.

How would British-German relations work out?

Is WW1 butterflied?

What happens afterward right up to 2014?

Note: If he does become King of Britain and Ireland, he would most likely be known as King William V of Great Britain and Ireland

For this to be accepted by Parliament (remember, the Parliament is what allows the Monarch to take the crown) there'd have to be some kind of different Kaiser Bill in the first place. Perhaps his grandfather doesn't exert so strong an influence, and his father gets more of a look-in.

 

[British Republic]

For this to be accepted by Parliament (remember, the Parliament is what allows the Monarch to take the crown) there'd have to be some kind of different Kaiser Bill in the first place.

There would have to be a change in the Act of Sucesson

Perhaps his grandfather doesn't exert so strong an influence, and his father gets more of a look-in.

Explain further.

What about a better childbirth as well, thus he would not have Erb's palsy, which in turn means that his personality would be different.

 

[Saphroneth]

.


Explain further.

What about a better childbirth as well, thus he would not have Erb's palsy, which in turn means that his personality would be different.

Broadly speaking, the dynastic logic behind the marriage of one of Victoria's daughters to the son of the Prussian King (as-was then) was to attempt to temper the rising power of Prussia as German Hegemon with a more liberal bent to it. (The authoritarian nature of Prussia and the Prussian constitution - which was basically the appearance of democracy without all that much of the substance, and a heavy domination by the Junkers - was a serious worry to Britain in the 1850s, and the hope was to nudge Prussia towards liberalism).

As it happened, the German Empire when it was founded was pretty Prussian and authoritarian; the Princess Royal and her husband were pro-Liberalism but they didn't manage to convince his father - a conservative - and he and the Prussian establishment in turn influenced Wilhelm II more than the boy's parents did. In the event, when Frederick III became Emperor, it was only for about a hundred days while he was very ill.

It's an interesting AH question as to what would have happened if the "plan" had actually worked, and Prussia had been more liberal when the Empire was founded.

(Source for this is mostly "Royal Cousins at War")

 

[British Republic]

Broadly speaking, the dynastic logic behind the marriage of one of Victoria's daughters to the son of the Prussian King (as-was then) was to attempt to temper the rising power of Prussia as German Hegemon with a more liberal bent to it. (The authoritarian nature of Prussia and the Prussian constitution - which was basically the appearance of democracy without all that much of the substance, and a heavy domination by the Junkers - was a serious worry to Britain in the 1850s, and the hope was to nudge Prussia towards liberalism).

As it happened, the German Empire when it was founded was pretty Prussian and authoritarian; the Princess Royal and her husband were pro-Liberalism but they didn't manage to convince his father - a conservative - and he and the Prussian establishment in turn influenced Wilhelm II more than the boy's parents did. In the event, when Frederick III became Emperor, it was only for about a hundred days while he was very ill.

It's an interesting AH question as to what would have happened if the "plan" had actually worked, and Prussia had been more liberal when the Empire was founded.

(Source for this is mostly "Royal Cousins at War")

William I had several assassination attempts made towards him in 1861, 1878 and 1883. If one of them was sucessful and thus Frederick III become king earlier and for longer, would it reduce the influence he has on Wilhelm II?

 

[British Republic]

So we have 3 posibble PODs:

1: Death of Albert Edward and Arthur before 1901

2: A better childbirth of Wilhelm II

3: A sucessful assassination attempt on Wilhelm I in either 1861, 1878 or 1883

It's an interesting AH question as to what would have happened if the "plan" had actually worked, and Prussia had been more liberal when the Empire was founded.

It would have allowed for a very close relationaship at least, which would mean thst combined they dominate Europe and most of the world.

It would also mean that AH does not gain Germany as a ally, as well as a stronger France-Russia relationship and a much weaker British-French one.

 

[JLBB]

So we have 3 posibble PODs:

1: Death of Albert Edward and Arthur before 1901

2: A better childbirth of Wilhelm II

3: A sucessful assassination attempt on Wilhelm I in either 1861, 1878 or 1883

1861 would butterfly Bismarck and with him the German unification as we know it away. Friedrich wouldn't make Bismarck PM.

1883 is a non starter. The Crown Prince and several other princes from the various ruling houses (if not of all the houses) were present alongside Wilhelm I, that made the place such a great target for a bomb attempt.

Besides, both 1878 and 1883 are too late, the relationship of Wilhelm and his parents was already bad. Not helped by Vicky worshipping her dead sons and viewing her surviving sons as failures.

A healthy Wilhelm would be the best starting point for better family relations. It butterflies the treatments of his arm and Vicky's unhappiness at having given birth to a not perfect heir.

Though getting Wilhelm on the british throne is a whole different story.

 

[British Republic]

1861 would butterfly Bismarck and with him the German unification as we know it away. Friedrich wouldn't make Bismarck PM.

Would it still happen though?

1883 is a non starter. The Crown Prince and several other princes from the various ruling houses (if not of all the houses) were present alongside Wilhelm I, that made the place such a great target for a bomb attempt.

Would that not be a good reason to do it?

What other princes where there?

Besides, both 1878 and 1883 are too late, the relationship of Wilhelm and his parents was already bad. Not helped by Vicky worshipping her dead sons and viewing her surviving sons as failures.

A healthy Wilhelm would be the best starting point for better family relations. It butterflies the treatments of his arm and Vicky's unhappiness at having given birth to a not perfect heir.

That is what I suggested, a better birth of Wilhelm. But would that be enough to reduce the influnce of Wilhelm I?

Though getting Wilhelm on the british throne is a whole different story.

Would the Deaths of Albert Edward and Arthur before 1901 be enough? I mean under the Act of Settlement as it was, the crown would have to go to Vicky and thus Wilhelm.

 

[Son of Leman Russ]

May I ask if lil' Willy fostered in London is considered ASB or not? (too much reading Ice and Fire)

 

[Saphroneth]

Would it still happen though?

.

As it happened is one thing, but a unification is still on the cards - might be less of a unification, though (e.g. only the North German Federation, while the South goes more towards Austria). But if you have Napoleon III being a tit on schedule, then that might stampede the SGF into unification after the Franco-Prussian War.

Hard to say, though, it's more of a topic for Pre 1900.

 

[British Republic]

As it happened is one thing, but a unification is still on the cards - might be less of a unification, though (e.g. only the North German Federation, while the South goes more towards Austria). But if you have Napoleon III being a tit on schedule, then that might stampede the SGF into unification after the Franco-Prussian War.

Hard to say, though, it's more of a topic for Pre 1900.

When you mean SGF, do you mean South German Federation? Who would be included?

 

[JLBB]

Would it still happen though?



Would that not be a good reason to do it?

What other princes where there?



That is what I suggested, a better birth of Wilhelm. But would that be enough to reduce the influnce of Wilhelm I?



Would the Deaths of Albert Edward and Arthur before 1901 be enough? I mean under the Act of Settlement as it was, the crown would have to go to Vicky and thus Wilhelm.

No clue, if it would still happen.
Prussia is busy with itself and the King vs Parliament act that is going on. Fritz didn't like the idea of reducing his royal powers anymore than his father or son, so that one stays a problem.
Austria may get a shot at stronger control of the federation in 1863, but that wouldn't be a unification.

I meant that the attempt in 1883 wouldn't result in a reign of Friedrich III. Not that it wasn't a great opportunity for anarchists to cause incredible unrest.
I have sadly not found anything solid on the other princes. Some sources state that members of all ruling houses were present, some say members of most ruling houses were present. Since the memorial in question was dedicated to the war of 1870/71 it would make sense that all houses were invited and sent at least some representives.

It would at least remove the tension between Wilhelm and his mother and subsequently his father. Wilhelm got good with his grandfather as they both despised Willy's parents. Without that there is less common ground between them.

I think you would need to kill Victoria's sons before they had offspring or kill them and their offspring to get Wilhelm that close to the throne. Even then I'm not sure if it would come to that union.

 

[Saphroneth]

When you mean SGF, do you mean South German Federation? Who would be included?

The North German Confederation had already formed at this point, IIRC. And yes, that's what I meant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_German_Confederation#mediaviewer/File:Map-NDB.svg
This map shows the North German Confederation in dark red. Orange would be the states which didn't join that but did join the German Empire. (Light orange is Alsasce Lorraine, which is a whole other kettle of fisch.)

 

[British Republic]

The North German Confederation had already formed at this point, IIRC. And yes, that's what I meant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_German_Confederation#mediaviewer/File:Map-NDB.svg
This map shows the North German Confederation in dark red. Orange would be the states which didn't join that but did join the German Empire. (Light orange is Alsasce Lorraine, which is a whole other kettle of fisch.)

I see what you mean. What would be Austrias part in this?

 

[Saphroneth]

I see what you mean. What would be Austrias part in this?

Peeved, possibly - it's Prussia pretty decisively winning their long contest for influence over Germany. On the other hand, it may actually reduce the SE drift of the A-H centre of gravity, especially if the southern German states agglomerate into the Empire.

 

[British Republic]

No clue, if it would still happen.
Prussia is busy with itself and the King vs Parliament act that is going on. Fritz didn't like the idea of reducing his royal powers anymore than his father or son, so that one stays a problem.
Austria may get a shot at stronger control of the federation in 1863, but that wouldn't be a unification.

I meant that the attempt in 1883 wouldn't result in a reign of Friedrich III. Not that it wasn't a great opportunity for anarchists to cause incredible unrest.
I have sadly not found anything solid on the other princes. Some sources state that members of all ruling houses were present, some say members of most ruling houses were present. Since the memorial in question was dedicated to the war of 1870/71 it would make sense that all houses were invited and sent at least some representives.

It would at least remove the tension between Wilhelm and his mother and subsequently his father. Wilhelm got good with his grandfather as they both despised Willy's parents. Without that there is less common ground between them.

I think you would need to kill Victoria's sons before they had offspring or kill them and their offspring to get Wilhelm that close to the throne. Even then I'm not sure if it would come to that union.

Can I get back to you on that, I will post a reply later.

 

[British Republic]

Peeved, possibly - it's Prussia pretty decisively winning their long contest for influence over Germany. On the other hand, it may actually reduce the SE drift of the A-H centre of gravity, especially if the southern German states agglomerate into the Empire.

How would it change the history of AH?

 

[Saphroneth]

How would it change the history of AH?

A lot. I'm afraid I know not much more than that, because it's not an area I know much about.

 

[Welshroyalhistory]

As you know in OTL, the death of Queen Victoria of Great Britain and Ireland let to her oldest son Albert Edward to become King Edward VII.

But what if that was not the case, what if (some reason or another) Albert Edward, Alfred (who died in 1900 in OTL), Arthur and Leopold (who died in 1884 in OTL) are no longer alive by the time Queen Victoria passes away in 22 January 1901 (I assume that the butterflies do not change the date of her passing)?

This would mean her eldest daughter Victoria (Empress of Germany/Queen of Prussia) would become Queen of Great Britain and Ireland/Empress of India. However she passed away in OTL on 5 August 1901 (again I doubt the butterflies do not change the date of her passing).

This would mean the British Crown would pass to her oldest son Frederick William Victor Albert, otherwise known as Wilhelm II of Germany (or Laiser Wilhelm)

Thus there would be a union of the crowns between Britain and its Empire and Germany and its Empire.

How would British-German relations work out?

Is WW1 butterflied?

What happens afterward right up to 2014?

Note: If he does become King of Britain and Ireland, he would most likely be known as King William V of Great Britain and Ireland

The British government was rather thrilled when Britain and Hanover went there separate ways, they would not be prepared to be shackled to Prussia.

The timeframe you are talking about is one of the most dangerous for the survival of the British monarchy, the 1860s and 1870s was a horrific time for Victoria and republicanism became very popular, she hid herself away and the monarchys survival owed much in this time to the popularity of her son and especially her daughter-in-law Alexandra of Denmark, who was the Diana of her day.

A scenario where all of Victoria's sons die in quick succession childless is going to effectively remove any public face for the monarchy. You have an absent Queen and the heiress to the throne lives in another country.

Succession to the throne is regulated by Parliament. I anticipate Parliament would act to enable one of Victoria's younger daughters to succeed or Britain would inevitably become a republic, possibly with Queen Victoria retiring to Coburg.

There will never be a personal union between Prussia and the UK.

 

[David S Poepoe]

Where does Prince George, Duke of Cambridge (1819-1904), fit in the line of succession by 1901?