WI: Tolkien lives longer?

mikegold

What if J.R.R. Tolkien lived to be eleventy-one (111 years old), dying in 2003? What if, furthermore, he maintains full mental and reasonable physical capabilities throughout his long life? I don't mean this to be ASB, just very lucky.

Any ideas as to the sort of developments we could see?

What does the Silmarillion look like, and when is it published?

Will other works be forthcoming, or does Tolkien continue to tinker but retire as a public writer?

Will there still be animated Hobbit/LOTR films? What will they be like? Or could there be an early live-action epic?

Does D&D still develop? How does Tolkien respond/interact with the phenomenon, if at all?

Are Tolkien's constructed languages more popular? How do they develop 1973-2003?

Is Star Wars different?

How might the works of other fantasy or potential fantasy authors be affected? Will we still see fantasy novels by Terry Brooks, Stephen Donaldson, Robert Jordan, George R.R. Martin, Tad Williams, Terrry Goodkind, or Stephen King, and if so, how are such works different? (At a guess, Shannara will not be quite so derivative, and the Dark Tower will be finished sooner and be profoundly different.)

How is the Alternate History fictional genre affected?
 
Alex Richards

Alex Richards

Donor
With the Silmarillion, I can see it being revised for another 20-25 years in such manner as to fully flesh out the various stories that are left a bit rough, and then being published in installments. We probably get some short stories of Numenor in the 2nd Age and the Reunified Kingdom in the 4th Age as well, though those could easily end up as posthumous works.
 

Arachnid

Keeping hale and hearty till he's eleventy-eleven would be a bit of stretch but it would be great to have a properly finished Silmarillion plus all the unfinished tales. As for the movies that might be less good, Tolkien was pretty protective but he might authorise one before the technology is really there in terms of CGI to deliver things like the Battle of Gondor and the arrival of the Men of Dunharrow. As for the wider literary scene except to seen Terry Brooks copy not just LOTR but anything else Tolkien publishes so that would be different.
 

mikegold

Alex Richards said:
With the Silmarillion, I can see it being revised for another 20-25 years in such manner as to fully flesh out the various stories that are left a bit rough, and then being published in installments. We probably get some short stories of Numenor in the 2nd Age and the Reunified Kingdom in the 4th Age as well, though those could easily end up as posthumous works.
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Jeez, 20-25 years to finish the Silmarillion? Did Tolkien have no sense of his own mortality, or did he just not care?

I have to agree though. Beren and Luthien, Gondolin, and maybe Hurin and Turin were getting to the finished stage. The rest, though, isn't much better than a sketch, and that is after years of work.
 

Elfwine

mikegold said:
Jeez, 20-25 years to finish the Silmarillion? Did Tolkien have no sense of his own mortality, or did he just not care?

I have to agree though. Beren and Luthien, Gondolin, and maybe Hurin and Turin were getting to the finished stage. The rest, though, isn't much better than a sketch, and that is after years of work.
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Tolkien was an obsessive perfectionist/tweak-it-until-it-is-just-right. I don't think its a matter of not caring, but rather caring too much.
 

mikegold

Arachnid said:
Keeping hale and hearty till he's eleventy-eleven would be a bit of stretch but it would be great to have a properly finished Silmarillion plus all the unfinished tales. As for the movies that might be less good, Tolkien was pretty protective but he might authorise one before the technology is really there in terms of CGI to deliver things like the Battle of Gondor and the arrival of the Men of Dunharrow. As for the wider literary scene except to seen Terry Brooks copy not just LOTR but anything else Tolkien publishes so that would be different.
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A Lucas or Spielberg LOTR? Would Tolkien participate actively in the movie process?

I just don't know if Brooks is brazen enough to plunder LOTR so openly with Tolkien still living and active. Maybe we'd see an earlier Landover instead, it's more of an Oz ripoff and Baum was in no position to complain.
 
Alex Richards

Alex Richards

Donor
mikegold said:
Jeez, 20-25 years to finish the Silmarillion? Did Tolkien have no sense of his own mortality, or did he just not care?

I have to agree though. Beren and Luthien, Gondolin, and maybe Hurin and Turin were getting to the finished stage. The rest, though, isn't much better than a sketch, and that is after years of work.
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As a rough idea, I think we'd have the following:

Ainulindalë- Pretty much the same with a bit of tweaking. Not to say that Tolkein couldn't write more, but I think he was aiming for a feeling of far distant mythology that even the elves of the First Age knew little of.

Valaquenta- Same as above, but making sure that everything matches up in terms of names etc. with the later works.

Beren and Luthien, The Children of Hurin and The Fall of Gondolin, together with the account of the Fall of Doriath and the voyages of Tuor will be also be finished. This is effectively the climax of the novel and has the works that were most key to the era.

Dagor Bragollach, War of Wrath and the very early bits (Kinslaying and destruction of the trees) get more fleshed out. The rest remains a general outline.

Akallabêth- Probably gets fleshed out further.
 
Marc Pasquin

Marc Pasquin

mikegold said:
A Lucas or Spielberg LOTR? Would Tolkien participate actively in the movie process?

I just don't know if Brooks is brazen enough to plunder LOTR so openly with Tolkien still living and active. Maybe we'd see an earlier Landover instead, it's more of an Oz ripoff and Baum was in no position to complain.
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"Mazes & Munchkins" ?
 
Athelstane

Athelstane

Elfwine said:
Tolkien was an obsessive perfectionist/tweak-it-until-it-is-just-right. I don't think its a matter of not caring, but rather caring too much.
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Not only that, but a terrible procrastinator (I can relate).

If you read his Letters, and the Carpenter biography...it seems evident that Tolkien had concluded by the late 60's that he simply would not finish the Silmarillion. His energy levels were flagging, and he found it more amenable to play around with a particular question or aspect of Middle Earth. This is why he began taking Christopher more and more into his confidence, since he knew that the task of completing the Silmarillion would fall to him.

To get a completed Silmarillion, I think you need an earlier POD, and much better health for Tolkien.
 

Swan Station

mikegold said:
I just don't know if Brooks is brazen enough to plunder LOTR so openly with Tolkien still living and active.
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Why not? It's not like Brooks is the only one doing it, and it's not like Tolkein is the only writer he's taking his ideas from. And, since he was already starting to write Shannara five years before Tolkein died, I don't see much changing with it OTL.

The only thing I really see changing Brooks' career is if the publishing house intern who liked his submission in OTL had just gotten done reading Tolkein's latest work the night before ATL (or some better work inspired by same), finds it too derivative, and decides not to put it on top of his/her boss's stack. Or something like that.
 

thekingsguard

He lives to 2003, he'd live to see the Lord of the Rings films made... wonder if he's like them (or that they are regarded as some of the best movies ever made)
 

Elfwine

thekingsguard said:
He lives to 2003, he'd live to see the Lord of the Rings films made... wonder if he's like them (or that they are regarded as some of the best movies ever made)
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I imagine his reaction to the elves appearing at Helm's Deep - to name one glaring example - would be...

pointed.
 

CandyDragon

If Robert Jordan does arise, it would be interesting to see if fantasy would divide into two camps (even more so than already) British and American. I don't want to overstate his importance, and he derived much from Tolkien, but Jordan, I think, is one of the few to have such a fully realized world, (If not so much in the language department) and Jordan has much more interesting characters. (Erm... 80% of these female characters don't exist) IMO. I never quite could care all that much for them. LOTR was high on epic, in both senses of the word, but low on actual character.

Maybe if he lived longer, he would have revised LOTR a bit more? I mean, as far as I know, the Silmarillion was his true love, IIRC, and all of its intricate legend/history and language building, but I'm sure with 111 years, he could do lots.
 

mikegold

CandyDragon said:
If Robert Jordan does arise, it would be interesting to see if fantasy would divide into two camps (even more so than already) British and American. I don't want to overstate his importance, and he derived much from Tolkien, but Jordan, I think, is one of the few to have such a fully realized world, (If not so much in the language department) and Jordan has much more interesting characters. (Erm... 80% of these female characters don't exist) IMO. I never quite could care all that much for them. LOTR was high on epic, in both senses of the word, but low on actual character.

Maybe if he lived longer, he would have revised LOTR a bit more? I mean, as far as I know, the Silmarillion was his true love, IIRC, and all of its intricate legend/history and language building, but I'm sure with 111 years, he could do lots.
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You know, in the circles I'm aware of, the big divide these days is between partisans of Martin and Jordan. If anything, I think American fantasy is surprisingly British. What would a good example be of a more modern popular work in the British Tolkien tradition, in that sense?
 
wcv215

wcv215

mikegold said:
Problem is, that just has to be butterflied, for so many reasons.
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Indeed, but they would happen I am sure of it.

IIRC Tolkien didn't mind a movie being made of the Lord of the Rings so long as Disney isn't involved. He even gave Christopher Lee permission to play Gandalf in the movies (Lee didn't because he felt he was too old).

The funny thing about the Lord of the Rings movies IOTL is when they were started the technology actually wasn't ready, for example the program for the fire used on the Balrog was written during filming. Most likely I think they will be made when he feels the technology is ready, perhaps a tad earlier than OTL but not by much. The person who directs it won't be the same though most likely, and some of the more annoying parts that were changed (Frodo and Sam in Osgiliath and the Elves at Helm's Deep being the biggest ones) would stay the same.
 

mikegold

wcv215 said:
Indeed, but they would happen I am sure of it.

IIRC Tolkien didn't mind a movie being made of the Lord of the Rings so long as Disney isn't involved. He even gave Christopher Lee permission to play Gandalf in the movies (Lee didn't because he felt he was too old).

The funny thing about the Lord of the Rings movies IOTL is when they were started the technology actually wasn't ready, for example the program for the fire used on the Balrog was written during filming. Most likely I think they will be made when he feels the technology is ready, perhaps a tad earlier than OTL but not by much. The person who directs it won't be the same though most likely, and some of the more annoying parts that were changed (Frodo and Sam in Osgiliath and the Elves at Helm's Deep being the biggest ones) would stay the same.
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Oh yeah, movie Faramir. That was the worst, worst thing about the films.

I'd also imagine the Sharkey bit gets in, because I'm pretty sure it was important to the moral. I.e., while the forces of Evil had been defeated, banal evil pops up in humdrum ways in everyday life - even in the Shire.
 

RPW@Cy

Tolkien would have little if anything to do with the development of the movies, given that he sold the film rights in 1968 (to pay a tax bill, IIRC). They'd be made with virtually no input from him and the biggest risk would have been him denouncing some of the grosser travesties in the movies - which would be about as influential as such author rants usually are.
 
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