I was wondering, would be war be possible ? (ASSUMING THE USSR DOESN'T SIDE WITH TITO)


If war does indeed happen, what would be the consequences afterwards?

I know there were still tensions between the remnants of the almost headless Chetniks, the leaderless Ustashe AND other groups.

What would be the involvement of the other Western Allies and to what extent?
 
The US was rapidly demobilizing, but not as demobilized as later. But there were demobilization riots.

If Stalin is not siding with Tito, maybe then he's not veto'ing a Security Council resolution, and Tito uses that as an excuse to back down.

The tools America has at hand to retaliate are primarily Air Force.

From the snippet of the news article, it sounds like the British were not trying to escalate the situation, or take the lead in escalating it. The British are really key here because they occupy the area of Austria adjacent to Yugoslavia, and the Americans don't.

In terms of ground power, Tito has an advantage at the outset. The occupation troops in Germany aren't primed to switch into combat mode, and certainly not to do amphibious ops in the Adriatic. Theoretically, Yugoslavia could use his ground forces to retaliate in the Trieste zone and northeast Italy, or Greece, against being bombed by the Americans, but he would have to know that is highly escalatory and not wanted by Stalin and putting him in US sites, setting him up for a mobilized US-UK-Italian reaction months down the line or an atomic reaction at the end of the day.

Besides bombing and anti-air, the main options Washington and Belgrade have against each other on the ground are funding dirty wars against each other, with the Americans trying to support the fragments of the Ustashe, Chetniks and any other Royalists, and Tito ramping up support for the Greek Communists.

If Yugoslavia gets invaded it knows how to go guerrilla. Despite the US mobilization potential, Stalin watching a US invasion of Yugoslavia really has to consider if he can afford to sit it out an watch, or if he better just go on the offensive to crush western forces in Germany and the continent in general. Regardless of extent, Soviet action might be required to prick the growing American aggression bubble.

There's lesser options too, reinforcing Central Europe, aiding Tito's guerrilla resistance, authorizing eastern bloc or Soviet "volunteers" to fight on the side of the Yugoslavs, a la the Korean War. But he could just decide that is pussyfooting around and do a general all-arms offensive against western and Southern Europe.

Tito being in an escalatory mood seems to me like the kind of thing that will accelerate Stalin's viewing of him as unacceptable. We don't have evidence he thought that was the case in August 1946. If you seem claims of such, buyer beware, it my just be researchers trying to show they are clever, finding the 'earliest signs' or 'earliest date' for the Tito-Stalin split. However, even if Stalin believes Tito has to go, he wants him replaced by some other Communist, not by an American puppet hosting American military bases.
 
The US was rapidly demobilizing, but not as demobilized as later. But there were demobilization riots.

If Stalin is not siding with Tito, maybe then he's not veto'ing a Security Council resolution, and Tito uses that as an excuse to back down.

The tools America has at hand to retaliate are primarily Air Force.

From the snippet of the news article, it sounds like the British were not trying to escalate the situation, or take the lead in escalating it. The British are really key here because they occupy the area of Austria adjacent to Yugoslavia, and the Americans don't.

In terms of ground power, Tito has an advantage at the outset. The occupation troops in Germany aren't primed to switch into combat mode, and certainly not to do amphibious ops in the Adriatic. Theoretically, Yugoslavia could use his ground forces to retaliate in the Trieste zone and northeast Italy, or Greece, against being bombed by the Americans, but he would have to know that is highly escalatory and not wanted by Stalin and putting him in US sites, setting him up for a mobilized US-UK-Italian reaction months down the line or an atomic reaction at the end of the day.

Besides bombing and anti-air, the main options Washington and Belgrade have against each other on the ground are funding dirty wars against each other, with the Americans trying to support the fragments of the Ustashe, Chetniks and any other Royalists, and Tito ramping up support for the Greek Communists.

If Yugoslavia gets invaded it knows how to go guerrilla. Despite the US mobilization potential, Stalin watching a US invasion of Yugoslavia really has to consider if he can afford to sit it out an watch, or if he better just go on the offensive to crush western forces in Germany and the continent in general. Regardless of extent, Soviet action might be required to prick the growing American aggression bubble.

There's lesser options too, reinforcing Central Europe, aiding Tito's guerrilla resistance, authorizing eastern bloc or Soviet "volunteers" to fight on the side of the Yugoslavs, a la the Korean War. But he could just decide that is pussyfooting around and do a general all-arms offensive against western and Southern Europe.

Tito being in an escalatory mood seems to me like the kind of thing that will accelerate Stalin's viewing of him as unacceptable. We don't have evidence he thought that was the case in August 1946. If you seem claims of such, buyer beware, it my just be researchers trying to show they are clever, finding the 'earliest signs' or 'earliest date' for the Tito-Stalin split. However, even if Stalin believes Tito has to go, he wants him replaced by some other Communist, not by an American puppet hosting American military bases.
There is no Stalin. I am aiming to having a narrative WITH HIM KICKING THE BUCKET 7/8 years than our universe.
 
@raharris1973 what are the groups that the US can support ?

We know the Chetniks of Serbia : but who's leading them if Draza Mihailovic has been already executed ? There is quisling Kosta Mušicki.

Croatians : we know Pavelic is still around in Europe but I doubt he would stick his neck out that early. So who is leading them?

Muslim Bosnians : I have no data on them.

Slovenes : Same.

Montenegrins : Pavle Đurišić is already dead.

Macedonians : Spiro Kitinchev ?
 
I was wondering, would be war be possible ? (ASSUMING THE USSR DOESN'T SIDE WITH TITO)


If war does indeed happen, what would be the consequences afterwards?

I know there were still tensions between the remnants of the almost headless Chetniks, the leaderless Ustashe AND other groups.

What would be the involvement of the other Western Allies and to what extent?

Well one of the main point of crisis will be Trieste and is very probable that the Morgan line will see a lot more incident than OTL
and one of the biggest point of pressure for Jugoslavia is the supply that come through the port of Trieste (under Anglo-American control).
Naturally with the supporting that Tito (contrary to OTL Stain order) give to the greek communist, the american can use the occasion to also bomb the camps in Macedonia

Honestly the big political winner can be Italy as the tension with Jugoslavia mean that there will be a lot less incentive for the americans to cater to Tito need in the Peace Treaty of Paris and so Rome can obtain better terms
 
That's still amazing to me tbh...they had some of the best farmland in the region and had to import food

There is no Stalin. I am aiming to having a narrative WITH HIM KICKING THE BUCKET 7/8 years than our universe.
Oh, I didn't know that was your plan. If Stalin is dying 7 or 8 years before August 1946, than that puts his death at August 1939 or August 1939. So since you still have Tito coming to power and America in Europe, I assume you put a "butterfly net" over Europe to make WWII go basically the same. Or if you mean Stalin dies 7 or 8 years earlier than OTL, it means he's dead in March 1946 or in March 1945 - that is probably what you meant.

@raharris1973 what are the groups that the US can support ?

We know the Chetniks of Serbia : but who's leading them if Draza Mihailovic has been already executed ? There is quisling Kosta Mušicki.

Croatians : we know Pavelic is still around in Europe but I doubt he would stick his neck out that early. So who is leading them?

Muslim Bosnians : I have no data on them.

Slovenes : Same.

Montenegrins : Pavle Đurišić is already dead.

Macedonians : Spiro Kitinchev ?
Sorry I can't really help you out. I don't now much about the leaders or postwar Yugoslavia. Anything I do know is very superficial, just having heard of Mihailovic and Pavelic. Hated as Pavelic was by so many, he did seem to oddly have this global network of supporters and admirers who were into him out of some twisted form of Catholic solidarity.
Honestly the big political winner can be Italy as the tension with Jugoslavia mean that there will be a lot less incentive for the americans to cater to Tito need in the Peace Treaty of Paris and so Rome can obtain better terms
I agree here, Italy can keep its prewar borders if it can rally forces and be supported by US AirPower. It would certainly get US and UK support for this once Yugoslavia breaks with them. It is a two-fer for the westerners, providing a short-term ally against Tito, and putting the Italian Communists in a domestically embarrassing situation by having Italy be in a conflict over a national interest issue against a Communist country.
 
I'll rephrase my estimate of the Soviet reaction to the conflict based on the assumption that Stalin is dead and out of the picture by March 1946, and the USSR is being run by a post-Stalin collective leadership:

The Soviet collective leadership will be cautious, so it will not be encouraging Tito to be aggressive and will be discouraging those tendencies, maybe the Soviet leadership will be reluctant to spend its veto power in the Security Council on Tito's behalf, and Tito uses that as an excuse to back down.

The tools America has at hand to retaliate are primarily Air Force.

From the snippet of the news article, it sounds like the British were not trying to escalate the situation, or take the lead in escalating it. The British are really key here because they occupy the area of Austria adjacent to Yugoslavia, and the Americans don't.

In terms of ground power, Tito has an advantage at the outset. The occupation troops in Germany aren't primed to switch into combat mode, and certainly not to do amphibious ops in the Adriatic. Theoretically, Yugoslavia could use his ground forces to retaliate in the Trieste zone and northeast Italy, or Greece, against being bombed by the Americans, but he would have to know that is highly escalatory and not wanted by Stalin and putting him in US sites, setting him up for a mobilized US-UK-Italian reaction months down the line or an atomic reaction at the end of the day.

Besides bombing and anti-air, the main options Washington and Belgrade have against each other on the ground are funding dirty wars against each other, with the Americans trying to support the fragments of the Ustashe, Chetniks and any other Royalists, and Tito ramping up support for the Greek Communists.

If Yugoslavia gets invaded it knows how to go guerrilla. Despite the US mobilization potential, the Soviet collective leadership watching a US invasion of Yugoslavia really has to consider if he can afford to sit it out and watch, or if it better just go on the offensive to crush western forces in Germany and the continent in general. Regardless of extent, Soviet action might be required to prick the growing American aggression bubble, if it looks like American invaders are intent on regime change in Yugoslavia, with restoration of a Kingdom or breaking up the country.

There's lesser options too, reinforcing Central Europe, aiding Tito's guerrilla resistance, authorizing eastern bloc or Soviet "volunteers" to fight on the side of the Yugoslavs, a la the Korean War. But the Soviet leaders could just decide that is pussyfooting around and do a general all-arms offensive against western and Southern Europe. They will really be trying press for diplomatic solutions and trying to stimulate worldwide peace movements and protests.

Tito being in an escalatory mood seems to me like the kind of thing that will remind Soviet leaders how little they are interested in getting into World War Three right now, and will spur repeated transnational Communist Party contacts with the Yugoslavian Party, to Tito, and all the other Yugoslavs, to try to calm things down. If Tito seems stubborn, they'll ask other Yugoslavs to get him to see reason, and may encourage them to take matters into their own hands. But they won't think they can easily "snap their fingers" and get him replaced on demand. And as much as they don't want to get sucked into war, they don't want Tito's Yugoslavia to lose to the point of outright overthrow of its socialist system----although, they might live with that if the only alternative is getting into war directly. The Soviet bloc states could try to thread the needle of accepting western conquest of Socialist Yugoslavia, or going on the attack conventionally against western invaders, by supplying Yugoslav forces as long as they can maintain first conventional and then partisan resistance.

A US invasion of Yugoslavia in the late 1940s? A successful beat-down and pacification, or a Vietnam in the Vardar?
 
Oh, I didn't know that was your plan. If Stalin is dying 7 or 8 years before August 1946, than that puts his death at August 1939 or August 1939. So since you still have Tito coming to power and America in Europe, I assume you put a "butterfly net" over Europe to make WWII go basically the same. Or if you mean Stalin dies 7 or 8 years earlier than OTL, it means he's dead in March 1946 or in March 1945 - that is probably what you meant.
The second. Exactly.
Sorry I can't really help you out. I don't now much about the leaders or postwar Yugoslavia. Anything I do know is very superficial, just having heard of Mihailovic and Pavelic. Hated as Pavelic was by so many, he did seem to oddly have this global network of supporters and admirers who were into him out of some twisted form of Catholic solidarity.
Do you know anyone who has knowldege here on the forum?
I agree here, Italy can keep its prewar borders if it can rally forces and be supported by US AirPower. It would certainly get US and UK support for this once Yugoslavia breaks with them. It is a two-fer for the westerners, providing a short-term ally against Tito, and putting the Italian Communists in a domestically embarrassing situation by having Italy be in a conflict over a national interest issue against a Communist country.
That would be a cool story.
 
Tito had driven the occupying forces out of a very divided Yugoslavia without a lot of external help, and had come close to taking one or two Austrian provinces at the end, so he's full of self belief. His attitude to Stalin's threats later IOTL indicate he won't take being pushed around.
[1] A few years ago, the BBC had a good radio series fronted by Tariq Ali which covered this. I'd expect it would be available as a podcast. I can't recall the name right now.
 
Soviet aligned parties 1944-1956 expected the next imperialist war soon, acted as if this was the case, and this was their caution. So changing that to “relaxed and comfortably” needs more than just killing off the guy who summarised the party’s interests while desperately trying to put manoeuvre anyone whose power could surpass his. You’re going to see salami unless a genuine belief forms that capitalism in 1946 is stable…
 
A US invasion of Yugoslavia in the late 1940s? A successful beat-down and pacification, or a Vietnam in the Vardar?
Doubt that the US will invade but an air campaign will be the preferable option and Washington best method of pressure over Belgrade is the fact that they can starve them as IRC they put through Trieste all the humanitarian help; in general the most probable approach will be bombard military target (expecially the DSE bases) and call it a day unless Tito is so reckless to escalate
Naturally causing trouble to Jugoslavia mean that the Greek communist share such trouble as they have base in Macedonia and rely on Belgrade support
The Anglo-American troops in Trieste and surrounding are in alert and ready due to the tension between the two side from the moment of the allied occupation of the city and incidents happened daily and London while preferring not start a new war even if limited, will follow the americans
 
I was gonna reply "this is a Warplan Pincher scenario", but then the OP ruled that out by keeping the USSR neutral. I guess a short, sharp series of punitive air strikes would be the most logical result. Be interesting to dig into it and see if the US had any plans to actually provide teeth to that ultimatum or if it was more of a bluff...

EDIT: Some brief googling indicates the US doesn't seem to have given any thought to actual military action against Yugoslavia, though this was because the Turkish Straits Crisis was happening at the same time and so US military was principally concerned with how it could "signal resolve" to the USSR there. Presumably in a TL where Stalin's out of the picture, that wouldn't be the case and more military attention would be devoted to backing up such an ultimatum to Yugoslavia, but it does leave things a bit conjectural.
 
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I wonder if the US did get involved would it slow demobilization enough that they would be better prepared for the Korean War and able to end it before China could get involved?
 
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