WI: The 'White Ship' Arrives Safely?

On the night of 25th November 1120 a Norman vessel, the White Ship, left the port of Barfleur for England. The crew and many passengers drunk, as the ship set sail it struck a submerged rock and sank with the loss of all on board. This event was of particular note as it carried the heir apparent to the Kingdom of England and the Duchy of Normandy, William Adelin, Henry I's only legitimate son. Also on board were: two of Henry I's illegitimate children, Matilda Fitzroy, Countess of Perche, and Richard of Lincoln, Earl of Suffolk; Richard d'Avranches, Earl of Chester and his wife Lucia-Mahaut; and Thomas FitzStephen, who captained the vessel, and had been a sea captain for William the Conqueror in 1066.

The sinking of the vessel threw the succession, seemingly secure, in to doubt. Henry, widowed for two years, hastily arranged a marriage to Adeliza of Louvain in a vain attempt to produce a male heir before his death. With no issue being produced by this marriage, Henry named his daughter, Matilda, as his heir, and got his nobles to swear allegiance to her. Even though they had done this, the barons instead supported the claims of Stephen of Blois, a nephew of Henry and grandson of William I. The resulting civil war, named 'the anarchy' by Victorian historians, and described as a time when "Christ and his saints were asleep" by contemporary chroniclers, eventually saw the throne pass to Matilda's son, Henry II.

So what if the ship had arrived safely? Perhaps Stephen FitzStephen decides against setting off at night while drunk - given that he was an experienced sailor he should have recognised that attempting to cross the Channel at night while drunk was foolhardy, or perhaps he sets sail anyway and despite the odds arrives safely. The obvious consequence is that William Adelin survives and inherits his fathers thrones when he dies (assuming he doesn't have a hunting accident - which was a suspiciously common occurrence for descendants of William I). Whether William Adelin would have made a good William III is up for debate. As it had been known that he would become king since his birth, he had received a deal of teaching to make him a better king, and he had recently begun exercising his father's role as Duke of Normandy. Henry had also secured him a marriage to Matilda of Anjou, daughter of Fulk V, Count of Anjou, turning Anjou from an opponent of Henry to an ally. That said, contemporary chroniclers did not seem to have a high opinion of William - Henry of Huntingdon claimed that his pampered upbringing would make him "food for the fire".

Additionally, William's survival not only means no Anarchy, it also means no Angevin inheritance with King Henry II, except for Maine which was Matilda of Anjou's dowry, making England weaker within France, but also making the kings of England..more English, in language (Henry I was the first king of England to speak the language, whereas the Angevins reverted to French) and in culture during the next 60 years. Would a non-Angevin England have a better hold on Normandy?
 
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A nonAngevin king means we don't get the whole mess with Eleanor of Aquitaine and the lion's cubs that Louis VII and Philip II exploited beautifully.

Lots of interesting royal scenarios there. That may be worse for France - or at least the Capets.
 
A nonAngevin king means we don't get the whole mess with Eleanor of Aquitaine and the lion's cubs that Louis VII and Philip II exploited beautifully.

Lots of interesting royal scenarios there. That may be worse for France - or at least the Capets.

On the flip side, the English throne doesn't come into more or less indirect control of half the Kingdom of France, either.
 
On the flip side, the English throne doesn't come into more or less indirect control of half the Kingdom of France, either.

Yeah.

Sufficient to say, a whole horde of butterflies are flying loose from this, and that's assuming none get rid of Eleanor to begin with.
 
A nonAngevin king means we don't get the whole mess with Eleanor of Aquitaine and the lion's cubs that Louis VII and Philip II exploited beautifully.

Lots of interesting royal scenarios there. That may be worse for France - or at least the Capets.

But Eleanor could marry the son of William Adelin, that scenario is on one of my inactive timelines.
 
But Eleanor could marry the son of William Adelin, that scenario is on one of my inactive timelines.

It's possible, I suppose. Eleanor was born in 1124 or so - and the earliest any children of William Aedlin and Matilda of Anjou would be born would be around the same time (probably a few years later).

Though for what its worth, Henry II was born in 1133, so...

But this sort of situation would probably be different than the historical Angevins in a lot of ways, nonetheless. And not just for not including the territories of the Angevins (more than just Anjou I believe).
 
It's possible, I suppose. Eleanor was born in 1124 or so - and the earliest any children of William Aedlin and Matilda of Anjou would be born would be around the same time (probably a few years later).

Though for what its worth, Henry II was born in 1133, so...

But this sort of situation would probably be different than the historical Angevins in a lot of ways, nonetheless. And not just for not including the territories of the Angevins (more than just Anjou I believe).

I even had the sons of the other woman of Philip of France, Bertrade of Montfort in that timeline sire heirs as well and one of them marries Empress Matilda, I think the marriage between Eleanor and the son of William Adelin was in a GURPS scenario.
 
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I even had the sons of the other woman of Philip of France, Bertrade of Montfort in that timeline sire heirs as well and one of them marries Empress Matilda, I think the marriage between Eleanor and the son of William Adelin was in a GURPS scenario.
I know Infinite Worlds used the OP's POD to start the Centrum timeline, but I don't know anything about their subsequent effects (until "most of civilization is destroyed and a hostile corporation picks up the pieces").
 
I know Infinite Worlds used the OP's POD to start the Centrum timeline, but I don't know anything about their subsequent effects (until "most of civilization is destroyed and a hostile corporation picks up the pieces").

I like a marriage of Eleanor to the son of William Adelin combined with a Byzantine Sicily, but I think it needs an earlier POD.
 
Without the warfare between Stephen of Blois and Matilda, William Adelin can focus on important things - maybe subjugating Scotland, Wales, and consolidating his position in the continent.

There is, of course, the possibility that William III dies childless and succession passes to Henry of Anjou regardless.
 
First and foremost, this means a stronger Anglo-Norman nobility. Considering that the White Ship was supposed to have the "cream and crop" of Norman nobility on board, including, as the OP stated, his own illegitimate brothers and sisters, plus several others of noble Norman birth, this probably ensures stronger centralization of government under William III, especially if he is anything like his father.

If Matilda marries Geoffrey, this also knocks out the whole Anjou inheritance problem, unless the Anglo-Normans go again to war with Anjou. On the other hand, if said butterfly of the white ship may cause Henry V of the HRE to live longer, and maybe Matilda does give birth to a child sometime, therefore this would butterfly away Henry of Anjou (OTL Henry II)
 
Thanks for the replies everyone. I think an 1120 point of departure would quite easily butterfly Eleanor of Aquitaine, who was born 2 or 4 years later. For one thing, her parents weren't even married in 1120, so it's not given that they will get married (William X of Aquitaine married Aenor de Châtellérault to placate his father, having already had a wife, so I don't think it was a long contracted arrangement). Even if a similar daughter is born, the death by food poisoning of her father that made her Duchess of Aquitaine and one of Europe's most eligible women in 1137 would also be butterflied, as would her marriage to Louis VII (arranged by her guardian, Louis VI).

While the 'anarchy' was not a great time, the reign of Henry II that followed saw the establishment of English Common Law, currency and finance reforms, and the rebuilding of the country after the anarchy. That said, these reforms etc. were only really made necessary by the anarchy, and in some ways represented extensions or restorations of what had happened under Henry I. Given that William Adelin was learning the art of kingship at the right hand of Henry I, acting in his stead in Normandy, it is not too far-fetched to suppose that he might have continued his father's reforms, backed up by a large network of half-brothers.

While there is the possibility that William III would have died without issue, as two of his uncles did, on the whole the Normans were rather fertile: William I had ten children; Robert Curthose had two legitimate children (his wife dying shortly after childbirth) and two illegitimate; Henry I had three legitimate children and about three hundred billion illegitimate children. The only male Normans who failed to procreate were either unmarried homosexuals or dead young. To my mind it seems reasonable that William would have managed to produce an heir or two, barring Alice d'Anjou being infertile, but we have no reason to suspect that she would be, as all her siblings successfully had children.

Matilda probably won't be marrying Geoffrey d'Anjou. At the time of the POD she is married to Heinrich V, and it's not impossible for her to bare him an heir, and for him to survive beyond 1125. Even if he does die, with William Adelin alive and married to Alice d'Anjou, thus securing Anjou as an ally for the Anglo-Normans, Henry I is not going to arrange a marriage to Geoffrey of Anjou. Additionally, Matilda is not the heiress presumptive as she was in 1125, so isn't as eligible as she was in OTL 1125. Presumably there is someone or other who Henry I would want to marry her off to to sure up an alliance or what-not - possibly even Stephen, for extra irony points?
 
I would also recommend looking up an excellent, if sadly unfinished, TL called "On a Tall White Ship", which worked with this POD rather well.
 
At the time of the POD she is married to Heinrich V, and it's not impossible for her to bare him an heir, and for him to survive beyond 1125.

Why? It is perfectly possible for Henry to survive (depending on what he died from in the first place), and for him to bare an heir with Matilda. If not, and he does die, it is also perfectly plausible for Matilda to be pregnant with a child at the time of his death, or to at least have a small child.
He is only 39 and Matilda is what, 18/19. The age difference should not really be a problem.

And going by Wikipedia (which is unreliable at most times), Henry and Matilda did apparently have a child, but the baby died not long after birth. I honestly do not kow how reliable this is, but...well, it is still possible for Henry and Matilda to have a child.
 
Why? It is perfectly possible for Henry to survive (depending on what he died from in the first place), and for him to bare an heir with Matilda. If not, and he does die, it is also perfectly plausible for Matilda to be pregnant with a child at the time of his death, or to at least have a small child.
He is only 39 and Matilda is what, 18/19. The age difference should not really be a problem.

And going by Wikipedia (which is unreliable at most times), Henry and Matilda did apparently have a child, but the baby died not long after birth. I honestly do not kow how reliable this is, but...well, it is still possible for Henry and Matilda to have a child.

From the Medieval Lands site:

6. HEINRICH (1086-Utrecht 23 May 1125, bur Speyer cathedral). The Annalista Saxo records the birth in 1081 of "Heinrico regi filius iunior"[454]. His father declared him as his successor in 1098 at Mainz[455]. Heinrich was elected associate king of Germany at Mainz 10 May 1098, crowned at Aachen 6 Jan 1099. In 1105, Heinrich broke with his father who was taken prisoner and forced to hand over the royal insignia at Ingelheim. Regarding this as an abdication, Heinrich had himself declared sole King of Germany at an assembly in Mainz in early Jan 1106. His father escaped and rallied his forces around Liège, where the younger Heinrich's army was defeated[456]. Heinrich's father died shortly after, and the younger Heinrich succeeded in 1106 as HEINRICH V King of Germany. King Heinrich clashed immediately with the papacy by persisting in the practice of lay investiture. During the course of negotiations to settle the issue, Heinrich left for Italy, spending time in Lombardy to rebuild the machinery of imperial government, and agreed a compromise with Pope Paschal II who agreed to crown him emperor 12 Feb 1111. The ceremony was halted by disputes over the settlement agreement, Heinrich imprisoned the Pope and his cardinals, and forced a new agreement at Ponte Mammolo near Tivoli 4 Apr 1111 under which the right to investiture was conceded in the absence of simony. On this basis Heinrich was crowned Emperor HEINRICH IV at Rome 13 Apr 1111[457]. Emperor Heinrich was obliged to intervene in Saxony where Duke Lothar von Süpplingenburg strengthened his power base. Although the duke submitted to the emperor in 1114, the imperial army was defeated by the Saxons at Welfesholz in 1115[458]. After the death of Matilda Ctss of Tuscany in 1116, Emperor Heinrich left for Italy to claim her inheritance but was forced into long negotiations with the papacy which reopened the question of lay investiture. The process concluded with the Concordat of Worms 23 Sep 1122 under which Emperor Heinrich renounced the use of spiritual symbols in lay investiture, promised canonical elections and free consecration, but was accorded the right to be present at elections of bishops and abbots in Germany[459]. Emperor Heinrich probably died of cancer[460]. The Annales Spirenses record his burial at Speyer[461]. m (betrothed Utrecht Easter 1110[462], Mainz 7 Jan 1114) as her first husband, MATILDA of England, daughter of HENRY I King of England & his first wife Eadgyth [Matilda] of Scotland (Winchester or London Feb/Aug 1102-Abbaye de Notre-Dame des Près, near Rouen 10 Sep 1167, bur Abbaye de Bec, Normandy, later moved to Rouen Cathedral). Her parentage is stated by Orderic Vitalis[463]. Florence of Worcester records that "rex Anglorum filiam suam" was betrothed to "Heinrico regi Teutonicorum" in [1110], and the marriage "VIII Id Jan" at Mainz in [1114] of "Heinrico Romanorum imperatori" and "Matildis filia regis Anglorum Heinrici", and her coronation as empress the same day[464]. She was crowned empress again in 1117 with her husband at St Peter’s Basilica, Rome. She married secondly (Le Mans Cathedral, Anjou 3 Apr/22 May/17 Jun 1128) Geoffroy “le Bel/Plantagenet” d’Anjou, who succeeded in 1129 as Geoffroy V Comte d'Anjou. She assumed the title “Lady of the English” in her fight against King Stephen, but was finally defeated 1 Nov 1141. Robert of Torigny records the death "1167…IV Id Sep Rothomagi" of "matris suæ [Henrici regis] Mathildis imperatricis" and her burial "Becci"[465]. The necrology of Angers Cathedral records the death "II Id Sep" of "Mathildis imperatrix filia Henrici regis uxor Goffredi comitis"[466]. Mistress (1): ---. The name of the mistress of Emperor Heinrich V is not known. Emperor Heinrich V had one illegitimate daughter by Mistress (1):Mistress (1): ---. The name of the mistress of Emperor Heinrich V is not known. Emperor Heinrich V had one illegitimate daughter by Mistress (1):
a) BERTHA . The Chronica Mon. Casinensis names "Bertam filiam suam [=imperator]" wife of "Ptolomeo illustrissimo, Octavia stirpe progenitor, Ptlomei magnificentissimi consulis Romanorum filio" when recording their marriage in 1117 during her father's visit to Rome[467]. m (1117) as his first wife, TOLOMEO [II] di Tuscolo, son of TOLOMEO Conte di Tuscolo & his wife --- (-25 Feb 1153). He succeeded his father in 1126 as Conte di Tuscolo.


The precise relationship between the following family sub-group and the Kings of Germany has not been established, although the "imperator" referred to by Orderic Vitalis was presumably Emperor Heinrich V, whose wife's brother was among those also drowned in the sinking of the White Ship.
1. HEINRICH . m ---. The name of Heinrich´s wife is not known. Heinrich & his wife had one child:
a) DIETRICH [Thierry] (-drowned off Barfleur, Normandy 25 Nov 1120). Orderic Vitalis records that "Teodericus puer Henrici nepos imperatoris Alemannorum" was drowned following the sinking of the “Blanche Nef [White Ship]”[468].

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/GERMANY, Kings.htm#_Toc284161554

For what it's worth.
 
bugger then.

Still, i do stand by the fact that it is possible.

BUT...

....just a curious question about butterflies, but are we assuming that in the long term events become different, but events in the near future, say in the first ten years would obviously remain the same, just with minor differences? Right, so, this could mean that Eleanor would still be born in 1122, but just have a different upbringing, and perhaps Henry V still dies....
 
bugger then.

Still, i do stand by the fact that it is possible.

Agreed.

I think its unlikely he would have one unless he lived longer, and anyone's guess on how hard it would be to butterfly cancer - but it ought to be possible to give him a few extra years.

BUT...

....just a curious question about butterflies, but are we assuming that in the long term events become different, but events in the near future, say in the first ten years would obviously remain the same, just with minor differences? Right, so, this could mean that Eleanor would still be born in 1122, but just have a different upbringing, and perhaps Henry V still dies....

That's my assumption. I'd say even up to a generation is going to remain roughly the same, unless a consequence of no disaster would interfere with events faster - but for instance, John II Comnenus is still dying in 1143.
 
Agreed.

I think its unlikely he would have one unless he lived longer, and anyone's guess on how hard it would be to butterfly cancer - but it ought to be possible to give him a few extra years.



That's my assumption. I'd say even up to a generation is going to remain roughly the same, unless a consequence of no disaster would interfere with events faster - but for instance, John II Comnenus is still dying in 1143.

For all intents and purposes, you could actually have Eleanor marry and bear a son to Louis, but still be in an unhappy marriage. The ensures that Aquitaine will remain in the crown, unless Eleanor still remains a scheming...well, bitch.
 
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