WI the Soviet Union and the United States joined Axis Powers?

[Pearlshire19]

What if Germany kept their alliance with the Soviets in World War II and the Japanese never bombed Pearl Harbor? Because if they did not bomb Pearl Harbor, they might have gotten the US to join the Axis Powers and the Soviets will also be on their side, and then the allies might not have won the war

 

[Anaxagoras]

If Hitler had been smarter and less ideological (good luck figuring that out) he would have waited to launch his attack on the USSR until Britain was brought to her knees. If the Finns had lasted a bit longer in the Winter War, the British and the French may have tried to intervene on their behalf, thus causing a war with the Soviets and automatically making the Germans and the Soviets allies.

Having the Americans join the war on the Axis side, however, is utterly out of the question.

 

[Michele]

What if Germany kept their alliance with the Soviets in World War II and the Japanese never bombed Pearl Harbor? Because if they did not bomb Pearl Harbor, they might have gotten the US to join the Axis Powers

No. I don't think so.

and the Soviets will also be on their side, and then the allies might not have won the war

Er, what "Allies"? In the scenario you described, you've just let Britain stand alone. OK, maybe you are counting the Free French, Free Poles etc...

 

[Pearlshire19]

When I said Allies, I meant Britain. There was also China in the East, so there that probably would make up the allies

 

[ninebucks]

What if Germany kept their alliance with the Soviets in World War II and the Japanese never bombed Pearl Harbor? Because if they did not bomb Pearl Harbor, they might have gotten the US to join the Axis Powers and the Soviets will also be on their side, and then the allies might not have won the war

Er, what "Allies"?

And what War? The basic conflict of World War Two was between Nazi Germany and the USSR, if that doesn't happen then there is no WWII.

 

[Pearlshire19]

ninebucks,
WWII was also against Britain, China and eventually the US. Hello? There was more than the USSR. What was the Battle of Britain a part of. What was that entire Japanese campaign the Pacific a part of?

 

[zoomar]

But a war involving an alliance among Germany, the USSR, and USA against Britain would be so one-sided that it could hardly be called a world war in the normal sense of the term. Now, if somehow, you got Japan to join with Britain, you might have something interesting: an alliance between two island empires with powerful navies and lots of overseas possessions against a coalition of two continental powers and one which is both a continental and naval power.

 

[Slamet]

ninebucks,
WWII was also against Britain, China and eventually the US. Hello? There was more than the USSR. What was the Battle of Britain a part of. What was that entire Japanese campaign the Pacific a part of?

I believe ninebucks was referring to the 'basic' conflict, eg. the conflict that was the main menu for WWII, a conflict of 2 different ideologies.

 

[Germaniac]

A war of France and Britain Vs. Germany would not be a world war. Once germany invaded USSR it becomes one

 

[Temujin]

I can hardly see the USA jumping into bed with the Axis just because of no Pearl Harbour...the problems go much deeper than that, the political meet sandwich needs to be changed...intriguing though a joint Soviet-American-German invasion of Britain, could be the theme of my next novel...

 

[mowque]

I can hardly see the USA jumping into bed with the Axis just because of no Pearl Harbour...the problems go much deeper than that, the political meet sandwich needs to be changed...intriguing though a joint Soviet-American-German invasion of Britain, could be the theme of my next novel...

Yeah, a very fair fight....

 

[Zyzzyva]

Yeah, a very fair fight....

Churchill'd take em.

 

[mowque]

i don't think England has enough landing grounds or beaches....

 

[Blue Max]

What if Germany kept their alliance with the Soviets in World War II and the Japanese never bombed Pearl Harbor? Because if they did not bomb Pearl Harbor, they might have gotten the US to join the Axis Powers and the Soviets will also be on their side, and then the allies might not have won the war

ASB.

Seriously, please explain the bolded part in detail. This can't happen without a massive PoD that predates the first world war, which would also butterfly the entire WW2 setup.

Soviets in the Axis Powers is viable; US in the Axis is utter lunacy.

 

[The_Tsar]

You will probably need the the US to have been neutral in WWI and more racist groups in order to even consider a US entry into the Axis.You may also need a President Lindbergh.

 

[metalstar316]

Lay off, guys, it's a NOOBWI

Total ASB, and here's why:

Hitler spelled out in Mein Kampf that he believed Germany's destiny was to colonize the western USSR and establish hegemony over the Slavic peoples of Europe. Since much of the USSR was Slavic, this all but rules out an alliance.

Another thing he called for was the destruction of Bolshevism. In case you didn't know that means the USSR.

Nazism and Communism are dialectically opposed to one another. One preaches racial equality, the other racial domination. They could never work together.

You could also argue that Stalin was even planning to invade Germany, and maybe he was. If so, this is another reason why it couldn't work.

And then you forgot the small fact that..........

American capitalism is opposed to both Nazism and Communism, so having the USA ally with both of its mortal enemies is, in itself, it enough to break the deal.

Not to mention the fact that the US was helping the British via Lend/lease, so it'd take a little more than "no pearl harbor" to bring America to the side of the Axis.

You are right about one thing though- an American/Nazi/Soviet alliance would have made for a bad day in Britain.

 

[The_Tsar]

Well, the US did ally with one of those "mortal enemies" in OTL. If what I mentioned does happen, the US has a reasonably good shot at joining Germany.

On the other hand, the USSR has almost no hope for joining the Axis. That is pure, pure ASB. Well, it's not if you never put Hitler and the Nazis in power. He clearly stated that he hated Russians AND Communists, and the two together is even worse.

 

[alt_historian]

Total ASB, and here's why:

Hitler spelled out in Mein Kampf that he believed Germany's destiny was to colonize the western USSR and establish hegemony over the Slavic peoples of Europe. Since much of the USSR was Slavic, this all but rules out an alliance.

Another thing he called for was the destruction of Bolshevism. In case you didn't know that means the USSR.

Nazism and Communism are dialectically opposed to one another. One preaches racial equality, the other racial domination. They could never work together.

You could also argue that Stalin was even planning to invade Germany, and maybe he was. If so, this is another reason why it couldn't work.

On the other hand, the USSR has almost no hope for joining the Axis. That is pure, pure ASB. Well, it's not if you never put Hitler and the Nazis in power. He clearly stated that he hated Russians AND Communists, and the two together is even worse.

Ahem... please take note, especially, of this:

For its part, the Soviet Union was not interested in maintaining a status quo, which it saw as disadvantageous to its interests, deriving as it did from the period of Soviet weakness immediately following the 1917 October Revolution and Russian Civil War. Helping Germany grow strong had accordingly been Soviet policy from 1920 to 1933. A fourth partition of Poland was suggested at regular intervals, satisfying Lenin's imperative that Versailles be undermined by destroying Poland. Once Hitler renounced the military cooperation between Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia that Hans von Seeckt had arranged, Stalin adopted the Popular Front policy, trying to draw the Western powers into war with Germany.

Soviet leaders adopted the position that war between what they characterized as rival imperialist countries was not only an inevitable consequence of capitalism, but by weakening the participants would also enhance conditions for the spread of Communism. This strategy worked out well for the victorious Soviets, who spread Communism into eastern Europe after the countries were weakened during World War II.
​

 

[Chengar Qordath]

First off, if the US and USSR are in the Axis there is no "might" about the Allies losing the war; it's only a question of how the spoils of the British Empire are going to be divided.

Now, others have outlined scenarios that could force the Nazis and Soviets into an alliance of convenience vs. the Allies via support of Finland and/or an attack an Baku, both of which were planned OTL. The M-R pact certainly shows that, if nothing else, the Soviets and Nazis were willing to put aside their utter hatred for each other for long enough to pursue some mutual goals like the destruction of Poland. I could certainly see the USSR under attack by the Allies joining the Axis, though I expect that within a year of the fall of the Allies there would be at the absolute minimum be a very nasty cold war between the Nazis and USSR, with a full-scale war between the two over the spoils of Britain being extremely likely.

Trust and friendship between Nazis and USSR is ASB; a temporary alliance of convenience with both intending to backstab the other once their common goals have been achieved and the situation was favorable is not only reasonable, but not too far off from the situation in OTL after the M-R pact.

As for the US, the only way to get them in the Axis is to have major political disruption compared to OTL, like a Fascist/Communist revolution prompted by a worse Great Depression.

 

[Michele]

When I said Allies, I meant Britain.

I see.

There was also China in the East, so there that probably would make up the allies

Which at the time when the POD takes place, was no ally. Given the desperate situation of Britain against all of Europe, Japan and the USA, I frankly doubt they'd look for an "ally" which would be such a drag. They'd seek terms.