WI the Romans discovered the Americas?

[Mitchell Hundred]

Realistically its unlikely the Romans even if they knew the Americas existed would take the effort to colonize it. However if the Romans were able to determine it existed and actually recorded and spread that knowledge of its existence, what impact would have resulted?

Surely with that knowledge others would likely attempt to reach the lands well before Columbus if not the Romans themselves.

 

[Lalli]

Roman ship might accidentally end to Americans but without navigation technology of 16th century it would be unable to return. Probably Roman ship even can't do just return trip anyway.

But even if Roman ship/s would be able reach Americans and return they might just report about new land in far west but it would be ignored. It would be too far to be colonised and Romans hadn't reason do that. Them had already enough doing with these lands what them had.

 

[Tonifranz]

When? For example, it different if a ship discovered the New World in the first century, that if, for example, the Roman Empire survived and discovered the continent in AD 1300 with comparable technology to 1400 era Portugal.

 

[Lemon flavoured]

There is some (slightly tenuous) evidence that the Romans might have had one or two ships end up in S.America. Obviously them getting home is unlikely.

And as Lalli said, I'm not sure they would necessarily want or need to expend the effort to actually colonise the Americas at that point in time, given the amount of work it would be to get there and back.

 

[LSCatilina]

The main problem there is that Roman ships that sailed the Atlantic weren't reallt fit for transoceanic crossing : they tended to be lighter and sometimes smaller.

Note that Atlantic sea trade was generally focused on Aquitaine-Channel-North Sea, while circumnavigation of Spain was rather limited).
Meaning that a transoceaning crossing would have fewer chances to begin from Betica or Lusitania, and more from either Gaul or Britain, thus making it more difficult.

So going for a crossing that would take more than one month on limited logistics (keeping in mind Colombus' sailors were on the verge of rebellion)...I wonder if anyone would make it alive when the ship reaches either Canada or Brazil.

 

[TruthfulPanda]

Nothing happens, really.
In OTL a circumnavigation of Africa was recorded in deep antiquity - and so what?
The information is lost, or overlooked, or put in hic sunt patagones territory.
As noted - without advances in ship building - nothing happens unitl the XIVth centuiry ...

 

[Lemon flavoured]

Nothing happens, really.
In OTL a circumnavigation of Africa was recorded in deep antiquity - and so what?
The information is lost, or overlooked, or put in hic sunt patagones territory.
As noted - without advances in ship building - nothing happens unitl the XIVth centuiry ...

Of course if they do find out that there's land to the west then it might spur improvement in shipbuilding.

 

[LSCatilina]

Of course if they do find out that there's land to the west then it might spur improvement in shipbuilding.

Not necessarily : transoceanic crossing would still take too much time, even with atlantic shipbuilding development, that it might be a likely prospect. India was already at the verge of the known world for Romans, which had mostly superficial and indirect contacts with.
It doesn't help that Americas at this point doesn't have much to offer to Rome that its closer trade partners don't have.

 

[Lemon flavoured]

Not necessarily : transoceanic crossing would still take too much time, even with atlantic shipbuilding development, that it might be a likely prospect. India was already at the verge of the known world for Romans, which had mostly superficial and indirect contacts with.
It doesn't help that Americas at this point doesn't have much to offer to Rome that its closer trade partners don't have.

True.

i do wonder if at the time any Roman scholars or philosophers or whatever actually considered, from a theoretical point of view, that there might be land on the other side of the Atlantic. I assume we would have found records of it if they did, but you never know.

 

[LSCatilina]

i do wonder if at the time any Roman scholars or philosophers or whatever actually considered, from a theoretical point of view, that there might be land on the other side of the Atlantic. I assume we would have found records of it if they did, but you never know.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crates_of_Mallus

For Crates, following the mere form of mathematical demonstration, says that the torrid zone is "occupied" by Oceanus and that on both sides of this zone are the temperate zones, the one being on our side, while the other is on the other side of it. Now, just as these Ethiopians on our side of Oceanus, who face the south throughout the whole length of the inhabited land, are called the most remote of the one group of peoples, since they dwell on the shores of Oceanus, so too, Crates thinks, we must conceive that on the other side of Oceanus also there are certain Ethiopians, the most remote of the other group of peoples in the temperate zone, since they dwell on the shores of this same Oceanus; and that they are in two groups and are "sundered in twain" by Oceanus. ​

 

[Lusitania]

There is evidence that Azores, Madeira and canaries were known during Roman time but with large amount of land still available for settlement in the Roman Empire there was no impetuous to settle these islands.

What you need is the Roman Empire survive to the 14-16 century and develop more advanced shipping technologies that would facilitate discovery and settlement of the Americas.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

The Phonecians were more likely candidates, & their skills & technology not really up to the task either.

 

[Lusitania]

What you could happen would be a large Roman fleet be swept out to sea and several Roman ships make it safely to the Americas. They intermarry with natives and establish a Roman based country in the Americas.

There is actually a series of comics created you can download them on iTunes look up Roman america. Also bit of preview is available in the alternative history books and media in the upcoming AH books.

 

[BlondieBC]

Cod.

I think that is the motivation needed. We have some pretty good evidence that Europeans were fishing off the coast of North America in the decades before Columbus arrived. Ancient Greece imported salted fish from the Black Sea. So the POD is pretty easy. At some point in time, an Emperor or other high Roman official pushes fishing for food the ways North Africa was developed for food for Rome. POD can go a lot of ways, but just to pick one.

Augustus encourages imported of salted fish from Atlantic to feed masses of Rome. We add a little fish to the bread and circus type ideas. I believe the distance from fishing grounds near the UK to Rome (ITL) in time is about the same as from Eastern Canada to the NW Spain (OTL). Idea goes ok, but not great. Around 120 AD, some emperor decides to built large imperial city near Rhine to help control the border. Say it is near modern Antwerp. These fish supplies are divert to new city, much like grain of Egypt was diverted to eastern empire IOTL. Over the next century, this city grows in size. As does the size of the fishing fleets, as does the size of the ships. These ships routinely go as far as Iceland to fish by 220 AD. By roughly 200 AD there are three main cities of the Roman Empire. Antwerp, Rome, Constantinople. By 250 AD, these ships are fishing off modern Canada. By 270 AD, these ships are in large numbers.

Now there are massive butterflies from OTL, but you can take this ATL lots of ways, and many of these ways have decent size Roman ports on the coast of North America. My view is that generally speaking, given a strong motive, basic technology can be moved backward in time.

 

[Lusitania]

Cod.

I think that is the motivation needed. We have some pretty good evidence that Europeans were fishing off the coast of North America in the decades before Columbus arrived. Ancient Greece imported salted fish from the Black Sea. So the POD is pretty easy. At some point in time, an Emperor or other high Roman official pushes fishing for food the ways North Africa was developed for food for Rome. POD can go a lot of ways, but just to pick one.

Augustus encourages imported of salted fish from Atlantic to feed masses of Rome. We add a little fish to the bread and circus type ideas. I believe the distance from fishing grounds near the UK to Rome (ITL) in time is about the same as from Eastern Canada to the NW Spain (OTL). Idea goes ok, but not great. Around 120 AD, some emperor decides to built large imperial city near Rhine to help control the border. Say it is near modern Antwerp. These fish supplies are divert to new city, much like grain of Egypt was diverted to eastern empire IOTL. Over the next century, this city grows in size. As does the size of the fishing fleets, as does the size of the ships. These ships routinely go as far as Iceland to fish by 220 AD. By roughly 200 AD there are three main cities of the Roman Empire. Antwerp, Rome, Constantinople. By 250 AD, these ships are fishing off modern Canada. By 270 AD, these ships are in large numbers.

Now there are massive butterflies from OTL, but you can take this ATL lots of ways, and many of these ways have decent size Roman ports on the coast of North America. My view is that generally speaking, given a strong motive, basic technology can be moved backward in time.

Fishing and settlement or claiming territory two different things. The European were fishing off banks for decades prior to its discovery by Columbus. So just because fishermen will guard their fishing grounds jealousy. Also the land around the Grand Banks not best for settlemt when so much good land wAd still available in Europe till past 1,000.

 

[Kaze]

When exactly would they discover America?

If it say during the wars with Carthage - it would be chasing the remains of the Carthaginian fleets and destroying them would be the first priority, then explore the lands, and IF they find gold - well, there goes the natives (stone age tech will not survive against the brunt of a Roman gladius and pillium).
If it is say during the middle part of Rome -
copy paste the Carthage example
If it is the latter half of the Roman Empire - where it is collapsing...
The Roman Emperor might think the gold useful but he has other problems such as barbarian hordes, Christians, and any idiot wanting to be the next emperor. Colonies or staying won't be in the cards - unless you go with "The barbarians are about to sack Roman city xyz, we are going to take our population and take them into a peaceful exile."

 

[LSCatilina]

There is no realistic way having a Mediterranean-based fleet, two of them, managing to cross the Atlantic without their crew dying of starvation if they're lucky (dehydratation if they're not) after at best one to two months of sailing (admitting that fleeing to nothingness is an option for either Carthaginians or Romans), having still energy or will to fight, then colonise, then turn back.

 

[Lusitania]

There is no realistic way having a Mediterranean-based fleet, two of them, managing to cross the Atlantic without their crew dying of starvation if they're lucky (dehydratation if they're not) after at best one to two months of sailing (admitting that fleeing to nothingness is an option for either Carthaginians or Romans), having still energy or will to fight, then colonise, then turn back.

Any ship traveling to Americas would be doing so one way.

 

[Lemon flavoured]

Fishing and settlement or claiming territory two different things. The European were fishing off banks for decades prior to its discovery by Columbus. So just because fishermen will guard their fishing grounds jealousy. Also the land around the Grand Banks not best for settlemt when so much good land wAd still available in Europe till past 1,000.

It was more like 150 years, IIRC.

 

[LSCatilina]

Any ship traveling to Americas would be doing so one way.

Of course, but while ships sailing the Atlantic in Roman times managing to cross the Atlantic is merely unplausible, Mediterranean-fit ships doing the same is outright insane.