WI : The Islamic world industrialized in the Middle Ages

[samcraft3]

First of all, how could such a thing happen and when exactly? (Most probably occurring in cordoba or Bagdad)
Secondly, how would it spread and what sectors would it immediately affect? (Will the spread of industrialization be slow or crazy fast in the Islamic world?)
Finally, what would be its long-term consequences? (~400y after the POD)
P.S: Sorry if I didn’t really use the forum properly, I’m still new here!

 

[Nivek]

First of all, how could such a thing happen and when exactly?

You need the drive and the market,maybe needs to manpower and resources people looking for the silver bullet look an evolution of the aeolipile? You need a drive for wares and machinery to remplace people , Britain have the need for coal after a massive deforestation and you needed to pump out water of the said mines and all evolved.

Maybe the need to faster fabrics or something is the drive for industrialization?

 

[PolishMagnet]

I believe the causes of the industrial Revolution were many, but two big things stick out to me: lack of manpower (aka high cost of labour) and availability of coal.

After the plague massively drove down the population of Europe, people were able to move around because suddenly it was a lot more expensive to hire people. This made machinery and tooling more desirable.

Second, automated machinery was made more attractive by the availability of coal. I believe this was made especially clear in the UK where they had lots of coal mines readily available.

So yeah, find a way to get those two and maybe 🤔

 

[how]

Concerning the availability of coal it seems Persia has the most access to coal and mineral wealth in general in the islamic world.

Perhaps the Khwarazmian Empire successfully defeat the Mongol invasion and thus preserve Baghdad?

 

[samcraft3]

Lacking manpower would be a very difficult thing to conceive, as I think slavery was still very proeminent in the medieval islamic world, and while some scholars were against it and promoted the abolition of slavery (for muslims) they were a minuscule minority even until the 19th century. I read about a controversy in Morocco in the late 16th century emerging after Ahmad Al-Mansur decided to take thousands of muslim blacks and enslave them in Morocco where they would be working in the immense sugar farms they created in the Souss region, and that was regarded by the ulemas as innaceptable, because for them enslaving muslims just because they were black was sinful. That didn't change anything and a century later Moulay Ismail (another sultan) killed all ulemas against his plans of forming a new slave army "Abid Al-Bukhari" which was composed of, you guessed it, muslim black slaves coming from subsaharan africa. Maybe if the plagues that ravaged a part of the islamic world in the 10th century were more violent this would solve the problem, but it's more likely that they'll just take slaves from africa to replace this lack of manpower.

The availability of coal in the islamic world can be seen in the east, especially in kurdistan and iran. Considering the abbassids controlled these regions for a very long time, they could have began a large scale exploitation of these coal mines, IF they knew where to find them and how to actually use the coal which was not seen as that useful in the medieval ages (if i remember correctly, coal was beginning to be really exploited in the late 18th century in Britain). So for that to happen, there needs to be a magical discovery of these mines and arab scholars genuinely interested by the many uses of this coal.

 

[Nivek]

Concerning the availability of coal it seems Persia has the most access to coal and mineral wealth in general in the islamic world.

Perhaps the Khwarazmian Empire successfully defeat the Mongol invasion and thus preserve Baghdad?

Another thing could be oil used early but still the issue of the technology for using it as even ground level oil was left as a tar pit

 

[Tosa Inu]

Butterfly the Mongols genocide of the Khwarazimids and Baghdadis, and you could have Islamic World remain technologically ahead of Christian Euroepe.

 

[PolishMagnet]

Butterfly the Mongols genocide of the Khwarazimids and Baghdadis, and you could have Islamic World remain technologically ahead of Christian Euroepe.

True, but that wouldn't be an industrial revolution. Why would a rich man in Baghdad build/commission a giant messy machine spewing black smoke if he can instead hire 50 random dudes to do the same work?

 

[Tosa Inu]

True, but that wouldn't be an industrial revolution. Why would a rich man in Baghdad build/commission a giant messy machine spewing black smoke if he can instead hire 50 random dudes to do the same work?

The key is knowledge, for basis of future researches instead of immediate use.

It's arguable that Islanic Mathematicians in Baghdad already has practical knowledge of Gravity and.basic Newtonian laws before Newton. They have "guessed" that projectiles travel the furthest from 45 degree angle, and with relatively accurate timing for fallen objects to the boot. That was what Muhammad Ibn Musa was writing about, and those physical-mathematics laws were being arguably researched first during the Abassid Caliphate.

 

[Socrates]

The key is knowledge, for basis of future researches instead of immediate use.

It's arguable that Islanic Mathematicians in Baghdad already has practical knowledge of Gravity and.basic Newtonian laws before Newton. They have "guessed" that projectiles travel the furthest from 45 degree angle, and with relatively accurate timing for fallen objects to the boot. That was what Muhammad Ibn Musa was writing about, and those physical-mathematics laws were being arguably researched first during the Abassid Caliphate.

Islamic science was certainly impressive, but it never progressed to creating anything close to a philosophy of science, or thinking from first principles, as the West did in the early modern period.

Also, more importantly, the sharia regulates commerce in many ways that prevents the necessary institutions for mass capital formation. They didn't have corporations that lasted beyond the lifetime of the owners. They did not allow interest bearing loans. They did not have limited liability. They did not have stock exchanges.

 

[Tosa Inu]

Also, more importantly, the sharia regulates commerce in many ways that prevents the necessary institutions for mass capital formation. They didn't have corporations that lasted beyond the lifetime of the owners. They did not allow interest bearing loans. They did not have limited liability. They did not have stock exchanges.

The Mongol genocide of Mesopotamia was arguably the one chiefly responsible for the Islamic world to turn back into more literal interpretation of the Quran instead of the relatively progressive Abbasid "Decadence".

Keep in mind that the very same rulers currently condemned by today's Islamic Scholars as drunken decadent tyrants, due to them drinking wine, spend their days listening to music, promoting works of arts, getting into USURY, and NOT OBSERVING SHARIA, was the very same rulers whom ended up being the chief financial backers and promotors of Sciences and backing the Libraries and Universities in the Mesopotamian region.

Kinda hillariously similar with all those "Corrupt and Decadent" Italian rulers during the late middle ages just before tbe Renaissance, Right? Why djd those very same Borgias and others ended up developing their lands to become center of scientific development and financial hub of Europe?

Imagine how well would Europe to getting into the Renaissance and Industrial Revolution with let's say, the Italian peninsula, being ravaged and their financial and learning centers being sacked and throughly destroyed in the 1500s. Europeans would be lucky if they merely reverted to the 1300s technologically.

 

[vgh...]

I believe the causes of the industrial Revolution were many, but two big things stick out to me: lack of manpower (aka high cost of labour) and availability of coal.

After the plague massively drove down the population of Europe, people were able to move around because suddenly it was a lot more expensive to hire people. This made machinery and tooling more desirable.

Second, automated machinery was made more attractive by the availability of coal. I believe this was made especially clear in the UK where they had lots of coal mines readily available.

So yeah, find a way to get those two and maybe 🤔

Was labour costly though? I thought the agricultural revolution pushing landless paupers into the cities made labour actually quite cheap at the time, while a revolution in production was happening.

 

[PolishMagnet]

Was labour costly though? I thought the agricultural revolution pushing landless paupers into the cities made labour actually quite cheap at the time, while a revolution in production was happening.

Not really costly, but enough to motivate looking for alternatives or ways to boost production. The flocking of poor towards cities also reduced the feasibility of decentralised production, meaning greater efficiency (or better organised production, better tools, etc) were more attractive. Before you'd have a bunch of villages slowly turning raw wool into products, whereas afterwards a lot of those people moved about.

 

[Basils]

I believe the causes of the industrial Revolution were many, but two big things stick out to me: lack of manpower (aka high cost of labour) and availability of coal.

After the plague massively drove down the population of Europe, people were able to move around because suddenly it was a lot more expensive to hire people. This made machinery and tooling more desirable.

Second, automated machinery was made more attractive by the availability of coal. I believe this was made especially clear in the UK where they had lots of coal mines readily available.

So yeah, find a way to get those two and maybe 🤔

Also the Muslim empires tended to have a lot of slaves. Zanj rebellion and all. Like the Romans, they put a damper on innovation. Why spend money and time in improving efficiency when you can throw slaves at the problem ?

 

[Basils]

Lacking manpower would be a very difficult thing to conceive, as I think slavery was still very proeminent in the medieval islamic world, and while some scholars were against it and promoted the abolition of slavery (for muslims) they were a minuscule minority even until the 19th century. I read about a controversy in Morocco in the late 16th century emerging after Ahmad Al-Mansur decided to take thousands of muslim blacks and enslave them in Morocco where they would be working in the immense sugar farms they created in the Souss region, and that was regarded by the ulemas as innaceptable, because for them enslaving muslims just because they were black was sinful. That didn't change anything and a century later Moulay Ismail (another sultan) killed all ulemas against his plans of forming a new slave army "Abid Al-Bukhari" which was composed of, you guessed it, muslim black slaves coming from subsaharan africa. Maybe if the plagues that ravaged a part of the islamic world in the 10th century were more violent this would solve the problem, but it's more likely that they'll just take slaves from africa to replace this lack of manpower.

The availability of coal in the islamic world can be seen in the east, especially in kurdistan and iran. Considering the abbassids controlled these regions for a very long time, they could have began a large scale exploitation of these coal mines, IF they knew where to find them and how to actually use the coal which was not seen as that useful in the medieval ages (if i remember correctly, coal was beginning to be really exploited in the late 18th century in Britain). So for that to happen, there needs to be a magical discovery of these mines and arab scholars genuinely interested by the many uses of this coal.

Can you have a hydro based IR? At first at least. Northern Iraq and Syria plus parts of turkey could become industrialized via water wheels. To a certain degree at least

 

[PolishMagnet]

Also the Muslim empires tended to have a lot of slaves. Zanj rebellion and all. Like the Romans, they put a damper on innovation. Why spend money and time in improving efficiency when you can throw slaves at the problem ?

Yeah, that's how I see it. China had the same thing.

 

[Basils]

Yeah, that's how I see it. China had the same thing.

Yep tons of serfs and or slaves to throw at a problem and you suddenly don’t care about investing in labor saving devices

 

[Jürgen]

I must admit I don’t really see how the Islamic world would be at the forefront of industrialization. There we’re a lot of factors which pushed industrialization in Europe, from the Scientific Revolution making continued improvements in manufacturing possible, strong states enforcing rule of law, property rights and removing internal trade barriers, a effective financial system, improvements in agriculture, state investment in and incentivising manufacturing.

 

[samcraft3]

Also the Muslim empires tended to have a lot of slaves. Zanj rebellion and all. Like the Romans, they put a damper on innovation. Why spend money and time in improving efficiency when you can throw slaves at the problem ?

Yep tons of serfs and or slaves to throw at a problem and you suddenly don’t care about investing in labor saving devices

Well, what if -for some reason- the arab slave trade was greatly diminished, for example what if Egypt was torn up in a civil war and morocco doesn’t conquer Western Africa like it did under the almoravids? This would seriously affect slave availability and price (at one point in Morocco slave were worth more or less 5 dinar coins) and maybe render paid labor and finally, automated machinery attractive (?). Combine that with a surviving Bagdad (and its books+scientists) and you could have at least some sort of beginning of industry.

Can you have a hydro based IR? At first at least. Northern Iraq and Syria plus parts of turkey could become industrialized via water wheels. To a certain degree at least

This could be possible, if I remember well water wheels were very common in Alandalus and Mesopotamia (there the mongols destroyed everything), but there still needs to be an event that will sparkle this Industrial Revolution.

 

[Basils]

That’s

Well, what if -for some reason- the arab slave trade was greatly diminished, for example what if Egypt was torn up in a civil war and morocco doesn’t conquer Western Africa like it did under the almoravids? This would seriously affect slave availability and price (at one point in Morocco slave were worth more or less 5 dinar coins) and maybe render paid labor and finally, automated machinery attractive (?). Combine that with a surviving Bagdad (and its books+scientists) and you could have at least some sort of beginning of industry.

This could be possible, if I remember well water wheels were very common in Alandalus and Mesopotamia (there the mongols destroyed everything), but there still needs to be an event that will sparkle this Industrial Revolution.

a lot of slaves not happening. They also raided the East African coast. They had a huge want for slaves and for them from basically every direction. The Caucus mts and Slavs as well were large sources. As were the balkans. You’d basically have to Notzi the Muslim empires for this to happen
Baghdad I think is a bad location. It’s not close to ore nor coal. I doubt river transport would support industrialization before steam boats could haul it.
lie ankara near coal and iron? That might be a better bet