WI The 1989 Hillsborough Disaster did not happen?

[British Republic]

In light of the recent news about the Second Inquest and the lack of such a thread about such a disaster being prevented I thought I would create this thread:

On the 15th of April 1989 a FA Cup Semi-Final (Between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest) was being played at Hillsborough Stadium (Which was and still is the home ground of Sheffield Wensday). On that day (mainly thanks to police incompetance, the fact the stadium itself was unsafe and the failure to manage the situation after the crash happened) 96 Liverpool fans where killed when the Leppings Lane gates* where opened (due to fears of overcrowding on the narrow concourse just outside the stand) and where directed into a narrow tunnel to the already overcrowded 3rd and 4th Pens on the lower tier of the stand.

The rest as they say is history...

However after reading about this diaster and the evidence relating to it over these years; I have found that the diaster could have been prevented if there was police at the tunnel in question (normally there would be such police at such games but for some unexplained reason there was not there on that day) and in turn directed the fans to the side pens (which were far less crowded than the central ones**) then this disaster would have not happened.

So let say the Police did this and thus the match would have carried on as usual, what would have happened?

More specifically how would this prevention affect the safety of football grounds, the direction of English Football and even any effects outside the world of football itself?

*The only access point for all the 24,256 Liverpool fans to enter the stadium and sit (or stand) in their allowcated positions in the stadium

**The Health and Safety Executive found that the safe capacity of the 3rd and 4th was 1,693. The number of fans at those pens was around 3,000 shortly before kick-off.

 

[Simon]

The obvious one I can think of is no resultant move to all-seater stadiums, IIRC they were already moving towards that but without such a public display it probably takes much longer. Whether there would be an incident between when Hillsborough in our timeline and when they removed the last of the terraces couldn't be said. No incident and the headlines that came from it mean no boycott of The Sun, at least not over this, in Liverpool either.

 

[Thoresby]

There will be a different tragedy. Simply put 1980's football fans and 1980's stadiums were disasters waiting to happen, thus the Heysel Disaster (39 dead Juventus fans because of Liverpool fans), the Bradford City Fire (56 dead), the Ibrox disaster (66 dead) etc.

To change things you need the cultural change that rioting and crowd violence isn't just "how things are", coupled with massive policing presence and serious investment in stadia all of which happened in OTL post Hillsborough.

 

[Ingsoc]

To change things you need the cultural change that rioting and crowd violence isn't just "how things are", coupled with massive policing presence and serious investment in stadia all of which happened in OTL post Hillsborough.

Perhaps you haven't read the outcome of the report - the fans 'rioting' or 'crowd violence' simply didn't happen. The behaviour of the crowd had nothing whatsoever to do with the Hillsborough disaster.

If you did know that, and were just tying Heysel and Hillsborough together as somehow being "the same kind of thing"...it's a little tasteless.

 

[Marky Bunny]

First of all simple, the FA don't allow the semi-final to take place at Hillsborough. Eight years earlier in 1981 at the semi-final between Tottenham Hotspur and Wolverhampton Wanderers Spurs fans who had the Leppings Lane end were crushed and spilt out over onto the pitch. 39 Fans were injured on the back of that Hillsborough was not used as a venue until 1987 when it hosted the Leeds v Coventry semi-final and the following year when it was Liverpool v Notts Forest.

The 1988 semi-final had police checking tickets and had officers doing crowd control in the area around the Leppings Lane end something that was NOT done a year before or in 1981. Also Duckenfield (Match Commander) refused to delay the kick-off although the 1987 semi-final was delayed for 15 minutes because of over-crowding outside the ground.

If the game takes place as normal with the same procedures in place as the year before well. We don't know who would have won on the day, of course Liverpool went onto win the replayed semi-final at Old Trafford three weeks later (where the first game really should have been played). As socially well I think it did hasten change and it did end the Government's bloody stupid planned ID Card system which was planned at the start of the 1990-91 season.

The other change football wise, is until 1989 no FA Cup semi-finals were shown live on TV, the BBC had wanted to show both games live that years on Sunday afternoon one after the other but the FA rejected it. It was not until the year after that because of Hillsborough the FA agreed.

 

[British Republic]

The obvious one I can think of is no resultant move to all-seater stadiums, IIRC they were already moving towards that but without such a public display it probably takes much longer.

Would it be gradual over many years or would it take another disaster all-seater stadiums to become widespread?

There will be a different tragedy. Simply put 1980's football fans and 1980's stadiums were disasters waiting to happen, thus the Heysel Disaster (39 dead Juventus fans because of Liverpool fans), the Bradford City Fire (56 dead), the Ibrox disaster (66 dead) etc.

I would very much agree with this and it might well happen in Hillsborough, when I reseached on the subject there were several near disasters at that very section at the ground on at least 4 occasions (1981 FA Cup Semi-Final between Spurs vs Wolves, 1987 FA Cup Quarter-Final between Sheffield Wednesday vs Coventry City, 1987 FA Cup Semi-Final between Coventry City and Leeds United and even the 1988 FA Cup Semi-Final between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest) while a Liverpool Fan who was at the 1988 Semi-Final wrote a letter to the Minister of Sport about this very part of the found.

In fact when you look at it Ibrox or even Bradford should have been the wake up call, but sadly it took the deaths of 96 people for things to change.

 

[British Republic]

If the game takes place as normal with the same procedures in place as the year before well. We don't know who would have won on the day, of course Liverpool went onto win the replayed semi-final at Old Trafford three weeks later (where the first game really should have been played).

Was Old Trafford a ground which has hosted FA Cup Semi-Finals in the past?

Likewise how would Liverpool fared as a club without this disaster coming about?

The other change football wise, is until 1989 no FA Cup semi-finals were shown live on TV, the BBC had wanted to show both games live that years on Sunday afternoon one after the other but the FA rejected it. It was not until the year after that because of Hillsborough the FA agreed.

I thought the Semi-Final at Hillsborough was shown live? I say this because I seen videos on YouTube of the event which took place live (From both the BBC and RTE in Ireland)? Was it just footage that they where recording for MotD which they then broadcast as the diasaster was taking place?

 

[Scientist Shan]

I thought the Semi-Final at Hillsborough was shown live? I say this because I seen videos on YouTube of the event which took place live (From both the BBC and RTE in Ireland)? Was it just footage that they where recording for MotD which they then broadcast as the diasaster was taking place?

It would have been filmed for MotD at night.

IIRC no matches taking place on a Saturday afternoon would have been shown live at that time.

 

[Thoresby]

[/B]
Perhaps you haven't read the outcome of the report - the fans 'rioting' or 'crowd violence' simply didn't happen. The behaviour of the crowd had nothing whatsoever to do with the Hillsborough disaster.

If you did know that, and were just tying Heysel and Hillsborough together as somehow being "the same kind of thing"...it's a little tasteless.

I didn't mean to imply that, what I meant was that the level of police presence and their pro-activeness at Football matches increased massively post Hillsborough because of Hillsborough.

 

[Scientist Shan]

[/B]
Perhaps you haven't read the outcome of the report - the fans 'rioting' or 'crowd violence' simply didn't happen. The behaviour of the crowd had nothing whatsoever to do with the Hillsborough disaster.

If you did know that, and were just tying Heysel and Hillsborough together as somehow being "the same kind of thing"...it's a little tasteless.

Of course the behaviour of football fans had plenty to do with the disaster.

Not behaviour on the day but the near two decades of trouble that had proceeded it.

Football fans were treated like animals and on many occasions they behaved like animals and gloried in so doing.

Which came first I don't know but it soon became a vicious circle.

 

[Ingsoc]

Of course the behaviour of football fans had plenty to do with the disaster.

Not behaviour on the day but the near two decades of trouble that had proceeded it.

Football fans were treated like animals and on many occasions they behaved like animals and gloried in so doing.

Which came first I don't know but it soon became a vicious circle.

Hmm, I've noticed a theme like this a few times online. First it was that Hillsborough was definitely caused by drunk Liverpool fans behaving like animals. Then unfortunately it was found that they've done nothing at all and the entire fault was with the police and stadium authorities.
Then the conversation became, as you've said above, it was still their fault in the long run because of the behaviour of various unrelated football fans many years beforehand.

Which basically means they got what they deserved, but of course without actually saying it, as that's now unacceptable.

Mean spirited, I think. Justice for the 96, at last, and against the wishes of some.

 

[RyanF]

It would be interesting to see the Premier League start with terraces still in the stadiums (I can't see no Hillsborough changing the desperate money grab that was the formation of the premier league, if anything might advance it by a year or two).

I wonder from this is there may be more fan resistance to the rises in ticket prices that happened in the early 1990s, which OTL were somewhat masked by the transition to all-seater stadiums after the Taylor report recommendations.

 

[Scientist Shan]

Hmm, I've noticed a theme like this a few times online. First it was that Hillsborough was definitely caused by drunk Liverpool fans behaving like animals. Then unfortunately it was found that they've done nothing at all and the entire fault was with the police and stadium authorities.
Then the conversation became, as you've said above, it was still their fault in the long run because of the behaviour of various unrelated football fans many years beforehand.

Which basically means they got what they deserved, but of course without actually saying it, as that's now unacceptable.

Mean spirited, I think. Justice for the 96, at last, and against the wishes of some.

So are you pretending that Liverpool fans didn't behave like animals at Heysel?

Or that Liverpool 39 Juventus 0 wasn't written on school desks all over England?

This is what Nick Hornby wrote in Fever Pitch about a game in 1972:

'I for one wanted time out from being a jug-eared, bespectacled, suburban twerp once in a while; I loved being able to frighten the shoppers in Derby or Norwich or Southampton (and they were frightened - you could see it). My opportunities for intimidating people had been limited hitherto, though I knew it wasn't me that made people hurry to the other side of the road, hauling their children after them; it was us, and I was part of us, an organ in the hooligan body.'

Take a look at all the memoirs of football hooligans that can be bought:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=football+hooligans&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Afootball+hooligans

Fans were treated like animals but they often behaved like animals and then they gloried in it.

I know this to be true because I was a football fan in the 1980s.

 

[Mike D]

Likewise how would Liverpool fared as a club without this disaster coming about?

Dalglish probably would have lasted longer as manager - the stress of the number of funerals he went to was a huge part in his resignation. If he stays on as manager (without the stress) I think we do far better in the 1990s - probably not to the same level as we did in the 70s and 80s but I doubt very much we'd be without a title since 1990. I assume Souness never happens - Dalglish is replaced by Roy Evans when he leaves at some point in the mid to late 90s.

I thought the Semi-Final at Hillsborough was shown live?

Nah, it's illegal to show 3pm kick offs live in the UK (although the FA Cup final had dispensation).

 

[Mike D]

It would be interesting to see the Premier League start with terraces still in the stadiums

It did, I stood on the Kop for Liverpool's first home Premier League game (vs Sheff United). The Kop didn't go all-seater until the end of the 1993/94 season.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjnXzdvc1R8

(Video of the Match of the Day coverage of the Kop's last stand).

 

[HesitatedEye]

One thing I can think of at least in regards to Scottish Football anyway is Celtic either no longer existing as they do now or as a new team. IIRC Celtic Park pre Taylor Report was the largest terraced stadium in the country and the board at the time had neither the finance nor the inclination to do anything about improving the Stadium. When the report was published they quickly realised how screwed they were but with no finance it became a rallying cry for Fergus McCann and the Rebels which lead to the club being saved if Hillsborough doesn't happen then there is unlikely to be a report into stadia in the UK and the Celtic will continue to wheeze along until the bank calls in it's overdraft but with no rallying point for the rebels against the board it's unlikely the club will be saved.

 

[mudhead]

I didn't mean to imply that, what I meant was that the level of police presence and their pro-activeness at Football matches increased massively post Hillsborough because of Hillsborough.

It was the police presence at Hillsborough that caused the disaster.

As Marky Bunny says, the ground had hosted a near disaster a few years before, and as Ingsoc points out, the attempts to control the narrative had been successful for many years.

Like everyone else, I've read loads of stuff on it, and I think the best piece (so far) is a lengthy one by David Conn in The Guardian. It covers the points raised above, and then some. Article here.

 

[Marky Bunny]

Yes, the BBC didn't show the game live they had asked the FA to show both semi-finals live on a Sunday but it was refused.

The plan was MOTD to show highlights of both semi-finals that night, the Liverpool v Notts Forest Game and the Everton v Norwich City game from Villa Park (Footage of this game exists with Barry Davies commentating but was never shown as full highlights, the goal clip was shown prior to the 1989 Final but that was it).

The BBC & ITV had tried to get the semi-finals shown live in the previous five years, but the efforts in 1984 & 1987 had failed, although the FA did allow ITV to show the whole game but two hours delayed on a Sunday of the 1987 semi-final between Coventry & Leeds.

The first live semi-finals were in 1990 with Crystal Palace v Liverpool at Villa Park & Manchester United v Oldham Athletic at Maine Road, Manchester.

Old Trafford had hosted semi-finals in the recent past to 1989, Everton v Leeds in 1968, Everton v Liverpool in 1971, and Liverpool v Leicester (first game in 1974). It had also hosted the 1970 FA Cup Final Replay as well the League Cup Final Replays in 1977 and 1978.

 

[Marky Bunny]

Regards Football in General , agreed that Dalglish wold have lasted longer as Manager, I would say that the stress of Hillsborough basically did cause him to have a major stress related breakdown.

That would have cause have a knock on effect for Blackburn Rovers because he returned as Manager at Blackburn in October 1991 eight months after leaving Liverpool. Blackburn would have to go get another big name Manager to push them into the first PL in 1992 and the title three years later.

Also here is an interesting point, football wise as well without Hillsborough we would not have the dramatic end to the 1989 season and "Thomas it's up for grabs now" that end of season title decider between Liverpool v Arsenal was moved to a Friday in late May because of Hillsborough, it had been due to have been played at Anfield the following Sunday.

 

[British Republic]

@Ingsoc + @Scientist Shan

On this subject I would like to say that hooliganism in Football was not responsible for the disaster itself, rather it was bad policing and the unsafe stadium that where to directly blame.

However the rise of football hooliganism thought the English Game (Although I maintain that it was a relatively small minority of fans who where involved in this and it affected far more than just LFC, hell my local club among others had a bad reputation for this) and the police and authorities idiotic reactions to this (and their management of the game as a whole) helped create the conditions for both the poor policing of the game and the (unsafe) neglect on stadiums such as Hillsborough (as well as the negative view of football fans held by both the police and the football authorities).

So ultimately hooliganism did play its part when it comes to the contribution to this disaster, but for very different reasons to what SYP and the FA claimed as part of the coverup and reasons which they are largely responsible for.

It would have been filmed for MotD at night.

Aim I correct in saying that John Motson (Who was doing the commentary for the BBC) was recording the commentary for the match (for MotD) as the footage was being recorded, footage which was then being shown live as the disaster happened?

IIRC no matches taking place on a Saturday afternoon would have been shown live at that time.

If that was the case well, it only applied to the UK and not the Irish Republic (otherwise there would not be RTE "live" footage of the match in the first place).

Or that Liverpool 39 Juventus 0 wasn't written on school desks all over England?

That does really have much to do with football hooliganism though? Does it?