WI: Technology to make WWII rescues more feasible

Question: is there a minor bit of technology which was just on the horizon for the Western allies which would have made rescues of allied prisoners slightly more feasible than it was, i.e. wouldn't result in deaths of a significant number of those who were to be rescued?

I'm not thinking of anything as big as helicopters or guided missles of some kind, but something much less ASB.
 
What kind of prisoners? And in what conditions?

If you're thinking of something like aircrew recovery or rescue, that might have been possible, some places. (Deep in Germany, I have doubts.)

Don't forget, PTO, there were Dumbo aircraft dropping inflatable rafts, & subs doing lifeguard duty. (CV-borne helos would've been a good idea even then, & just possible.)
 
Helicopters aren't that ASB in this context. I believe the US Navy had operational helicopters from about 1944, on a related note, the RAF had a squadron of Autogyros from about 1938. Not sure what they were used for but they existed.

STOL Aircraft in the form of Lysanders had already shown their use, so given the technology at the time, could a solid fuel JATO analogue be used to make say a C47 a short take off aircraft for lifting prisoners out?
Not sure how practical that would be in terms of airframe stresses, "runway" availability etc, but that could have made Market Garden or it's ITTL analogue interesting, and probably very spectacularly messy.
 
Helicopters aren't that ASB in this context. I believe the US Navy had operational helicopters from about 1944, on a related note, the RAF had a squadron of Autogyros from about 1938. Not sure what they were used for but they existed.
Well there's the Sikorsky CH-37 Mojave that was a twin-engined radial powered helicopter that placed them in outboard nacelles. Now it's not great compared to the follow-on turboshaft powered helicopters but that's to be expected and the performance in and of itself is pretty decent. Whilst the Mojave first flew in 1953 and was introduced in 1956 the engine that powered it, the Pratt & Whitney R-2800 Double Wasp, had been around since 1939 so that doesn't appear to be a problem.
 
There's also the H-19 (with one R1340 to begin with), the HRP (powered by a single R975, used for plane guard OTL), the H-21 (a single R1820), & H-34 (also a single R1820). (There's also a tandem-rotor twin piston type I can't think of the name of...:()

All of them require an appreciation of what rotorwings can do, first...so something closer to the '39 VS-300 (R-4) is likely.
 
Yeah I actually almost said that if you're going for a rescue helicopter then you might be better off scaling it back to something Sea King size and the Sikorsky H-19 Chickasaw seeems about right. Range is still decent, and you could have to fight the other services for them since being able to carry a rifle section would be very appealing the the Army and Royal Marines.


All of them require an appreciation of what rotorwings can do, first...so something closer to the '39 VS-300 (R-4) is likely.
The only way I can see JimmyJimJam gettig a proper helicopter is to try and advance the introduction of the R-4, and its predecessor the VS-300. Don't really know enough about things to suggest how you could get that.
 
Helicopters aren't that ASB in this context. I believe the US Navy had operational helicopters from about 1944, on a related note, the RAF had a squadron of Autogyros from about 1938. Not sure what they were used for but they existed.

STOL Aircraft in the form of Lysanders had already shown their use, so given the technology at the time, could a solid fuel JATO analogue be used to make say a C47 a short take off aircraft for lifting prisoners out?
Not sure how practical that would be in terms of airframe stresses, "runway" availability etc, but that could have made Market Garden or it's ITTL analogue interesting, and probably very spectacularly messy.
GALCIT at Cal Tech was working on JATOs back in 1941. One wonders what it would take to have a Credible Sport-type plan for a rescue.
 
Simon said:
Don't really know enough about things to suggest how you could get that.
There might be a way: get Hitler to support the Focke-Achgelis or Flettner birds & have them in German service in '39-'40.

The FA-61 was a step closer to a useful rescue bird, tho the Fl-282 (with more hp) would probably reach service first, for recce from raiders & for light casevac (in place of the Storch). An *Fl-382 might get 70mm rocket pods for use in SU, too.

Then the Allies copy the idea...
 
Rescuing downed airmen or cut off troops in small numbers using helicopters that are say 5-8 years more advanced than OTL is certainly doable - especially useful in rescuing aircrew downed at sea or for rescues of crews of sunken ships. In terms of rescuing POWs...not really going to happen as camps are usually too far away from allied lines, also even if you have STOL a/c they need someplace to land, usually not near a POW camp.

So..IMHO advancing helos by 5-8 years "rescues" allied personnel, but the numbers are not huge and POW rescues by air just not happening.
 
Do helicopters really add much extra though in the case of aircrew that crash land in the sea? For the UK at least they had the high-speed Air Sea Rescue boats for people that went down in the Channel and North Sea closer to the UK plus flying boats which could land to pick people up and had much better range and endurance than even the future helicopters we're discussing. The range/endurance factor is going to be even more important in the Pacific. Helicopters could take over the plane guard duties for when carriers are launching or recovering aircraft as they've done in our timeline to free up an escort but that's not a massive boost to be honest.

Is there any way of speeding up the introduction of emergency beacons? IIRC the Allies didn't start introducing hand-cranked ones until 1942 after capturing a German model in mid to late-1941. Considering what they were able to do with the SCR-300/SCR-536 model portable "walkie talkie" and "handie talkie" radios a small battery powered one should be achievable, perhaps look at possibly some sort of automatic broadcast feature if the plane crashes? Either way, just being able to get a triangulation on downed aircrew to send out whichever vehicle or aircraft you decide to use as soon as possible should help boost recovery numbers.
 
Simon said:
Do helicopters really add much extra though in the case of aircrew that crash land in the sea? For the UK at least they had the high-speed Air Sea Rescue boats for people that went down in the Channel and North Sea closer to the UK plus flying boats which could land to pick people up and had much better range and endurance than even the future helicopters we're discussing. The range/endurance factor is going to be even more important in the Pacific. Helicopters could take over the plane guard duties for when carriers are launching or recovering aircraft as they've done in our timeline to free up an escort but that's not a massive boost to be honest.
I can't quantify it, but if the casevac example is any guide, the improvement would be pretty dramatic: survival went from around 60% (IIRC) to nearer 95% with helo. The pickup survivals probably don't climb so high, but they do make a difference.
Simon said:
Is there any way of speeding up the introduction of emergency beacons? IIRC the Allies didn't start introducing hand-cranked ones until 1942 after capturing a German model in mid to late-1941. Considering what they were able to do with the SCR-300/SCR-536 model portable "walkie talkie" and "handie talkie" radios a small battery powered one should be achievable, perhaps look at possibly some sort of automatic broadcast feature if the plane crashes? Either way, just being able to get a triangulation on downed aircrew to send out whichever vehicle or aircraft you decide to use as soon as possible should help boost recovery numbers.
I wonder if the added capability doesn't provide motive. If aircrew can be readily rescued, there'd be reason to fit a/c with better radios, & men with portable ones.

Plus, with the helo capability to insert troops, you're a small step from adapting airborne to airmobile: Chindits or 5307h Composite (Marauders), frex. They'd also benefit from SCR-536s or *PRC-49s.
 
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Has there ever been a mass breakout of POWs involving helos apart from in the Ramboverse? I kinda think that if it were possible without significant losses, it would've been done.
 
for the allies it might help if they stopped specifically targeting german resue planes. In otl the british systematically attacked german seaplanes (with a red cross!!!) that tried to rescue downed pilots. Violating the geneva convention in this respect does not help to improve the chances of your own aircrew, especially since the german rescue crews also rescued allied airmen.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-sea_rescue
 
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I can't quantify it, but if the casevac example is any guide, the improvement would be pretty dramatic: survival went from around 60% (IIRC) to nearer 95% with helo. The pickup survivals probably don't climb so high, but they do make a difference.
Yeah, I was concentrating on rescue/recovery missions that I completely forgot casualty evacuations.


Has there ever been a mass breakout of POWs involving helos apart from in the Ramboverse? I kinda think that if it were possible without significant losses, it would've been done.
Well it's been attempted, the one that I can think of off the top of my head was Operation Ivory Coast, better known as the Son Tay raid during the Vietnam war. Unfortunately the prisoners had been moved about four months before the raid but due to intelligence failures this wasn't known by those planning the mission, by most accounts though if they had been there then it would of most likely been successful.
 
also even if you have STOL a/c they need someplace to land, usually not near a POW camp.

So..IMHO advancing helos by 5-8 years "rescues" allied personnel, but the numbers are not huge and POW rescues by air just not happening.

Don't you just need a reasonably flat field or something reasonably close to the camp?
 
Regarding RAF autogyros and rotorwings, I have heard they were used to test and calibrate the British coastal radar arrays, since their low stall speeds came in handy for holding station and such while the boffins tried to get a fix on them.
 
It's difficult to say with any certainty (as most of the information was highly classified, and still isn't readily available), but it's quite possible that the RAF was using it's autogyros for insertion and recovery of personnel behind enemy lines. Incidentally, I live a couple of miles from one of the airfields used for those missions, it's called Heigham Holmes and is basically a low island of (relatively) solid ground in the middle of miles of marshland. the only way in or out is a single track road that crosses the River Thurne on a floating bridge. I know a couple of local history enthusiasts who've tried their best to find out what went on there during the war, and they've yet to come up with anything definite (and normally if it's there to be found, they'll find it).

Getting back to the point, RAF Coastal Command had several models of airborne lifeboat that were slung underneath larger patrol aircraft (Wellingtons, Warwicks, Lancasters, and B-17s for definite, there may have been others) and dropped by parachute if people were spotted in the water. Some of them were designed by Uffa Fox (very well respected yacht designer and builder based in Cowes on the Isle of Wight), and they came equipped with a mast, sails, and a pamphlet explaining how to sail, in case the peoplle who needed it didn't know. I think some of them may also have had Stuart-Turner two stroke inboard petrol engines (the one in one of our local museums does, but I don't know if that's an original fit or if it's a wartime model or post-war).
 
Alternate History Geek said:
Don't you just need a reasonably flat field or something reasonably close to the camp?
Most of the Stalag pics I've seen show an exercise yard big enough for an LZ. More likely, tho, the rescue would take out the guard towers & fences & the POWs head for a place where the rescue a/c can come in with sufficient numbers to evac them all. (This presumes the early piston types can't carry large numbers, absent a *CH-47.)
 
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