WI: Surviving Issue for Marie Therese and The Duke of Angouleme

[WillVictoria]

After reading a book on Marie Therese, daughter of Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette, I wonder how history would be affected if the Duke and Duchess of Angouleme had been able to produce an heir with Marie Therese's pragmatism and Angouleme's liberal leanings. For the sake of this scenario, let's assume Marie Therese doesn't miscarry in 1813 and follows that up with two more successful pregnancies in 1815 & 1818, giving the following children

1. Louis Augustus Antoine (1813)
2. Charles Joseph Francis (1815)
3. Marie Antoinette Therese (1818)

How would a restored Bourbon monarchy look with the prospect of a King Louis XVIII Antoine, Queen Marie Therese and their children the Dauphin, Duke of Bourdeaux, and Madame Royale?

 

[JonasResende]

After reading a book on Marie Therese, daughter of Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette, I wonder how history would be affected if the Duke and Duchess of Angouleme had been able to produce an heir with Marie Therese's pragmatism and Angouleme's liberal leanings. For the sake of this scenario, let's assume Marie Therese doesn't miscarry in 1813 and follows that up with two more successful pregnancies in 1815 & 1818, giving the following children

1. Louis Augustus Antoine (1813)
2. Charles Joseph Francis (1815)
3. Marie Antoinette Therese (1818)

How would a restored Bourbon monarchy look with the prospect of a King Louis XVIII Antoine, Queen Marie Therese and their children the Dauphin, Duke of Bourdeaux, and Madame Royale?

Angoulême will be Louis XIX (as he was OTL for all of 30 minutes). But it could be interesting to see. If we leave aside the possibility that Marie Thérèse was infertile (it may have been the stress of everything with the revolution) and Angoulême's neurosathenia (which is a vague description of what was wrong with him, since by definition it is characterized by lassitude, fatigue, headache, and irritability, associated chiefly with emotional disturbance), I think it could have been interesting to see. @Emperor Constantine said once that motherhood would've had a healing effect on Marie Thérèse, and two sons born in 1813 (when it becomes clear Napoléon's star is on the wane), 1815 (at the Restauration) would probably be regarded as good omens.

Angoulême wasn't "liberal" per se, just that he was more like Louis XVIII than his father was. We'd probably still have the trashcan fire that was Charles X's reign - unless Louvel stabs Artois instead of Berri at the opéra. But definitely no July Monarchy (since even if Marie Thérèse persuades her husband to abdicate as OTL, the duc de Bourgogne (Louis Auguste Antoine), the dauphin (Louis Antoine)'s eldest son wouldn't need a regent, so there would be no reason for them to go to Louis Philippe. Of course, Marie Thérèse begged Charles X not to appoint Orléans as regent (citing his father's treachery in the Revolution plus Orléans' own less than stellar reputation in those times), and when the council took the offer of the crown to Louis Philippe, his wife (Marie Amélie of Naples) barred them access and said "take it away, we don't want it" (paraphrased). Then Madame Adélaïde (LP's sister) swept in and responded "Gentlemen, you have done my family a great honor and have secured for France a new king" (paraphrasing).

 

[isabella]

Angoulême will be Louis XIX (as he was OTL for all of 30 minutes). But it could be interesting to see. If we leave aside the possibility that Marie Thérèse was infertile (it may have been the stress of everything with the revolution) and Angoulême's neurosathenia (which is a vague description of what was wrong with him, since by definition it is characterized by lassitude, fatigue, headache, and irritability, associated chiefly with emotional disturbance), I think it could have been interesting to see. @Emperor Constantine said once that motherhood would've had a healing effect on Marie Thérèse, and two sons born in 1813 (when it becomes clear Napoléon's star is on the wane), 1815 (at the Restauration) would probably be regarded as good omens.

Angoulême wasn't "liberal" per se, just that he was more like Louis XVIII than his father was. We'd probably still have the trashcan fire that was Charles X's reign - unless Louvel stabs Artois instead of Berri at the opéra. But definitely no July Monarchy (since even if Marie Thérèse persuades her husband to abdicate as OTL, the duc de Bourgogne (Louis Auguste Antoine), the dauphin (Louis Antoine)'s eldest son wouldn't need a regent, so there would be no reason for them to go to Louis Philippe. Of course, Marie Thérèse begged Charles X not to appoint Orléans as regent (citing his father's treachery in the Revolution plus Orléans' own less than stellar reputation in those times), and when the council took the offer of the crown to Louis Philippe, his wife (Marie Amélie of Naples) barred them access and said "take it away, we don't want it" (paraphrased). Then Madame Adélaïde (LP's sister) swept in and responded "Gentlemen, you have done my family a great honor and have secured for France a new king" (paraphrasing).

With two sons of Angouleme already born (and maybe a son already born to Berry and his wife) Louvel will not have any reason to kill Berry (he kill him only because he wanted the extinction of the main line of the Bourbons) so either he do not kill anyone or his victim will be Artois

 

[JonasResende]

With two sons of Angouleme already born (and maybe a son already born to Berry and his wife) Louvel will not have any reason to kill Berry (he kill him only because he wanted the extinction of the main line of the Bourbons) so either he do not kill anyone or his victim will be Artois

Louvel was also crazy IIRC, so I'm going with that he'll still get stabbity. What this also affects is Berri's marriage prospects. He was persona non grata at the Neapolitan court after his last attempt to find a bride there (back in the 1790s), where he'd courted two of Marie Caroline's daughters, seduced them both, and married neither. Here, does he even marry? And if so, would he still get Carolina of Naples (I hope so, because she was really the kick in the ass that the French Bourbons needed IMO - although seeing her tread her younger half-sister's footsteps as queen of Spain could also be fun)? Or would the Restauration court look elsewhere? Marie Thérèse's phantom pregnancy of 1818 nearly scotched the Neapolitan match OTL, which indicates that they were interested in their daughter becoming queen rather than merely wife of the premier prince du sang.

 

[JonasResende]

Sorry for the double post, but I just thought who can take the place of Carolina of Naples as duchesse de Berri. OTL, the prince de Condé was considering remarriage (or the king was considering it for him), and the lady they were interested in was Isabel of Portugal (later Regent of Portugal when Joao VI died). However, while the marriage was being negotiated, Isabel came to her dad and confessed that she had a had child out of wedlock with one Johann Friedrich Chistoph Gerstlacher (think he was a Hannoverian German in the royal bodyguard or somesuch, ICR the gentleman's rank and credentials), named Virginia (oh the irony of the name ). And that if she (Isabel) had to leave Portugal, she'd never see the little girl again. When the French ambassador found out about it, he was understandably unimpressed, and I guess he may have asked Joao what sort of ship he was running in Lisbon, and the French dropped the idea (since I've never read that either of Isabel's younger sisters (or any other girl) were ever considered for Condé).

In 1815/6 Isabel hasn't given birth to Virginia yet (she only came along in 1822), so her reputation isn't in tatters. Now, the Portuguese court isn't in Europe for a while still, but that didn't stop Isabel's two sisters from marrying the Spanish king and his brother; or her brother from wedding an Austrian archduchess. So, she could be an attractive prospect I guess.

 

[isabella]

Louvel was also crazy IIRC, so I'm going with that he'll still get stabbity. What this also affects is Berri's marriage prospects. He was persona non grata at the Neapolitan court after his last attempt to find a bride there (back in the 1790s), where he'd courted two of Marie Caroline's daughters, seduced them both, and married neither. Here, does he even marry? And if so, would he still get Carolina of Naples (I hope so, because she was really the kick in the ass that the French Bourbons needed IMO - although seeing her tread her younger half-sister's footsteps as queen of Spain could also be fun)? Or would the Restauration court look elsewhere? Marie Thérèse's phantom pregnancy of 1818 nearly scotched the Neapolitan match OTL, which indicates that they were interested in their daughter becoming queen rather than merely wife of the premier prince du sang.

You are sure Berry courted and seduced the princesses and marry neither? I read he wanted to marry Maria Amalia before she married Orléans but her parents said no to the match as Berry had neither money or prospects at the time

 

[JonasResende]

You are sure Berry courted and seduced the princesses and marry neither? I read he wanted to marry Maria Amalia before she married Orléans but her parents said no to the match as Berry had neither money or prospects at the time

I'm sure I read it in Nagel's bio of Madame Royale that near the end of the 1790s, Berri arrived in Naples with the intention of courting one of the king of Naples' daughters, ended up seducing two (the one he was supposed to be courting and another - I think it may have been Maria Amelia and Maria Cristina, later queen of Sardinia), and because of the ensuing scandal, left with neither. And thus, he settled down with Amy Brown in London. But unfortunately, I don't have my copy at hand to check, and there's no full copy available on google books

 

[WillVictoria]

I'm sure I read it in Nagel's bio of Madame Royale that near the end of the 1790s, Berri arrived in Naples with the intention of courting one of the king of Naples' daughters, ended up seducing two (the one he was supposed to be courting and another - I think it may have been Maria Amelia and Maria Cristina, later queen of Sardinia), and because of the ensuing scandal, left with neither. And thus, he settled down with Amy Brown in London. But unfortunately, I don't have my copy at hand to check, and there's no full copy available on google books

That was the book that inspired me to start this thread, so I can confirm that this did happen (at least according to Nagel) as I remember that passage which I read a few days ago.

 

[JonasResende]

That was the book that inspired me to start this thread, so I can confirm that this did happen (at least according to Nagel) as I remember that passage which I read a few days ago.

Thanks, I was scared that I was imagining it.

1816/1817, we have Louis Antoine, duc d'Angoulême married with his cousin, and three kids (two boys and a bun in the oven). Naples decides that Carolina is too good to waste on a spare's spare to France (which is what Berri would be by then, Berri’s negotiations were abruptly cut off over the Angoulême’s “miracle conception,” of 1816 the King of Two Sicilies was greatly angry and refused to consider the match further), the eldest Saxon princess considered for Berri (maybe she's too pious, the youngest girl, Maria Josefa was raised in a convent, and even the Spanish considered her piety excessive. When she died and they asked Fernando VII what he was looking for in a wife, he responded "No more rosaries!") - although the lady considered, Maria Amalie (b.1794) was seemingly rather beautiful from her portraits, and a composer and writer in her own right, plus when Napoléon chided her [Amalie] that she and her family would soon grow used to him. Amalie spiritedly replied "Citoyen Bonaparte, there are simply things which one does not become used-to".

Portugal comes offering Isabel. Now, Isabel has her own can of worms - namely she and her siblings are not considered to be their father's legitimate children. However, they were all supposedly very beautiful (which is why they doubted the paternity, since it was considered impossible that two ugly persons could produce such beautiful offspring. And it wasn't helped by Carlota's carryings-on and Joao's refusal to acknowledge any child born after Ana de Jesus as his own - and Carlota was pregnant (though they were miscarried or stillbirths) a further three times). Although, counting against Isabel, is that when her sister married Fernando VII, he [Fernando] remarked to D. Carlos, "Ah, but brother, you got the beautiful sister!"
If Isabel, if the French accept her (maybe the Saxon lady's secret marriage to Franciscus de Merendonque becomes public - she only married him in 1817 OTL when she got pregnant (sound like another royal lady of roughly the same time: cough cough Carolina, duchesse de Berri), can avoid her niece, the Princesse de Joinville's gaffe when she stepped off the boat in France, asking for a bowl of macaw soup, she might do rather nicely. Joao wanted to offset British influence in Brasil, and France is the ideal stick with which to hit England IMO.

 

[Emperor Constantine]

OK so very cool thread! I actually messed with an idea of a Marie Thérése having children TL, but as I'm not focused on the 19th century, it hasn't gone anywhere. Anyway, first off, Marie Thérése having children would secure the succession and continue the line of Louix XVI, both good things in itself, but also, as @isabella pointed out, potentially save Berri from the assassins blade. I don't think anyone has realized just how significant this would be. Charles-Ferdinand is described on the French Wikipedia as liberal and closer to the political views of his uncle Louis XVIII; his assassination utterly destroyed any attempt at creating a moderate constitutional France. Before his murder France was slowly inching towards a moderate middle route; press censorship was lessened, if not abolished, the economy was rapidly industrializing and the government had proposed a law to extend the suffrage. Then the Duc is murdered and the reforms are dead in their tracks. The press censorship was restored, the universities placed under state control, secondary education placed under the control of the clergy, the rich were allowed "double votes", the moderate Prime Minister Decazes (who the family blamed for the assassination) was dismissed and replaced with an ultra-conservative ministry, ex ex. So between moderate Angoulême, a surviving Berri and a continuing Decazes ministry the Bourbon Restoration might just fully stabilize itself. Of course we still have to get through Charles X, but perhaps with both of his sons alive and the Bourbon line secured, they might be able to manage him better, though I have my doubts.

@JonasResende, I'm confused over which Portuguese Infanta your referring to. Do you mean Maria Isabel, the OTL second Queen of Fernando VII or Isabel Maria (God the Portuguese were nor original with names), the Regent between her father and brothers reigns? Also, Ana de Jesus was born in 1806 and was the last of João VI and Carlotta's children, so refusing to acknowledge legitimacy for any children born after her seems a bit odd as there were none. Personally I think that a Braganza match would be a fascinating idea (and one that never happened OTL; though I think Madame Elisábeth, Louis XVI's youngest sister, was considered as a bride for José, João VI's older brother), but realistically the Bourbons would favor a Saxon match, being already related and a good ally I mean. Although, the Saxon King remained loyal to Napoléon until the end, so maybe Dresden might be vetoed in favor of Rio de Janeiro.

 

[JonasResende]

@JonasResende, I'm confused over which Portuguese Infanta your referring to. Do you mean Maria Isabel, the OTL second Queen of Fernando VII or Isabel Maria (God the Portuguese were nor original with names), the Regent between her father and brothers reigns? Also, Ana de Jesus was born in 1806 and was the last of João VI and Carlotta's children, so refusing to acknowledge legitimacy for any children born after her seems a bit odd as there were none. Personally I think that a Braganza match would be a fascinating idea (and one that never happened OTL; though I think Madame Elisábeth, Louis XVI's youngest sister, was considered as a bride for José, João VI's older brother), but realistically the Bourbons would favor a Saxon match, being already related and a good ally I mean. Although, the Saxon King remained loyal to Napoléon until the end, so maybe Dresden might be vetoed in favor of Rio de Janeiro.

Isabel Maria, OTL regent of Portugal when João died.
And Ana de Jesus in 1806 wasn't the last time Carlota was pregnant, hence João's statement. From what I can make out is that Carlota's last three children (Miguel, Maria de Assunção and Ana) aren't universally agreed by historians to have been the king's children either - the couple was by that time living separately, but João accepted paternity. The following pregnancies were the ones that João refused to acknowledge as his own - a little boy born to Carlota in 1810, who died unnamed within a few hours. Plus stillborn daughters in 1816 and 1820.

And to paraphrase another member:

Exactly. While Louis XIX/duc de Berri wasn't a liberal (in the modern sense), he at least knew that the Revolution had changed the political landscape of France, and worked within its framework.

bold parts mine

 

[isabella]

Louvel was also crazy IIRC, so I'm going with that he'll still get stabbity. What this also affects is Berri's marriage prospects. He was persona non grata at the Neapolitan court after his last attempt to find a bride there (back in the 1790s), where he'd courted two of Marie Caroline's daughters, seduced them both, and married neither. Here, does he even marry? And if so, would he still get Carolina of Naples (I hope so, because she was really the kick in the ass that the French Bourbons needed IMO - although seeing her tread her younger half-sister's footsteps as queen of Spain could also be fun)? Or would the Restauration court look elsewhere? Marie Thérèse's phantom pregnancy of 1818 nearly scotched the Neapolitan match OTL, which indicates that they were interested in their daughter becoming queen rather than merely wife of the premier prince du sang.

Louvel was crazy and he will likely think to assassinate a member of the French royal family but his intended victim likely will be the Count of Artois, not the Duke of Berry (as his OTL reason for killing Berry here will not be valid)

 

[Emperor Constantine]

Louvel was crazy and he will likely think to assassinate a member of the French royal family but his intended victim likely will be the Count of Artois, not the Duke of Berry (as his OTL reason for killing Berry here will not be valid)

Hell that would be great for France then! Kills the last reactionary in line for the throne, though that means that the crackdown post assassination still happens unfortunately. Wouldn't it be better for the assassination to fail instead, like what happened with Louis XV?

 

[WillVictoria]

Hell that would be great for France then! Kills the last reactionary in line for the throne, though that means that the crackdown post assassination still happens unfortunately. Wouldn't it be better for the assassination to fail instead, like what happened with Louis XV?

Maybe he injures Artois in such a way that Artois survives but ends up incapacitated so that the actual mantle of kingship falls to Angouleme.

 

[Emperor Constantine]

Maybe he injures Artois in such a way that Artois survives but ends up incapacitated so that the actual mantle of kingship falls to Angouleme.

That would make Angoulême Regent but not solve the issue of a crackdown in 1820. It would be better if Artois was struck down by illness rather than an assassin's blade.

 

[Emperor Constantine]

Sorry to bump this but I had another thought; would a child of Marie-Thérése be properly prepared to rule 19th century France? I mean OTL she was behind the appointment of Jesuit tutors for her niece and nephew, leaving Chambord more prepared to be a Saint Louis rather than Henri IV (paraphrasing something that many of the Legitimists said and felt). So I can't help but worry over what education the Angoulême children would get. On the one hand, until 1824 ultimate authority over their education would stay with Louis XVIII, meaning that the Angoulême boys would probably get a more balanced initial education, but on the other hand we have their reactionary grandfather as Sovereign afterwards, along with their fairly reactionary mother. Would Angoulême be able to put his foot down and appoint more modern tutors and governors? I'm not sure about that.

 

[JonasResende]

Sorry to bump this but I had another thought; would a child of Marie-Thérése be properly prepared to rule 19th century France? I mean OTL she was behind the appointment of Jesuit tutors for her niece and nephew, leaving Chambord more prepared to be a Saint Louis rather than Henri IV (paraphrasing something that many of the Legitimists said and felt). So I can't help but worry over what education the Angoulême children would get. On the one hand, until 1824 ultimate authority over their education would stay with Louis XVIII, meaning that the Angoulême boys would probably get a more balanced initial education, but on the other hand we have their reactionary grandfather as Sovereign afterwards, along with their fairly reactionary mother. Would Angoulême be able to put his foot down and appoint more modern tutors and governors? I'm not sure about that.

They'd probably wind up in a way like Mary II or Anne, education-wise. James II was a Catholic, but Charles II was smart enough to realize that that was not the way the wind was blowing, and insisted on them being raised Anglican. If James had had an older surviving son by Mary of Modena, Charles would've still had him raised CoE rather than Catholic. While James would've taken over charge of his son's education when he becomes king, it's kinda hard if for the first 12/10 years of his life, Angoulême's sons have had one brand of tutors (under Louis XVIII) and now, under grandpa Charles, they've got tutors teaching them that the tutors they had were wrong. By 12/10 years old, their personalities might be set already. So, provided that Louis XVIII choses the right type of people, and that there's no crackdown in 1820 and everything (tutors included) is changed, these kids might be enough to actually let Charles X keep the throne. While James II's heir was his Protestant heir, no one had much of a problem with him. It was when James III everything went to Hell. Same here, Charles can be as absolute as he likes, but the people know that he's not immortal, and once he dies, the crown passes to the more moderate Angoulême, or to the reasonably moderate son of Angoulême... at least, this is my opinion.

 

[Emperor Constantine]

They'd probably wind up in a way like Mary II or Anne, education-wise. James II was a Catholic, but Charles II was smart enough to realize that that was not the way the wind was blowing, and insisted on them being raised Anglican. If James had had an older surviving son by Mary of Modena, Charles would've still had him raised CoE rather than Catholic. While James would've taken over charge of his son's education when he becomes king, it's kinda hard if for the first 12/10 years of his life, Angoulême's sons have had one brand of tutors (under Louis XVIII) and now, under grandpa Charles, they've got tutors teaching them that the tutors they had were wrong. By 12/10 years old, their personalities might be set already. So, provided that Louis XVIII choses the right type of people, and that there's no crackdown in 1820 and everything (tutors included) is changed, these kids might be enough to actually let Charles X keep the throne. While James II's heir was his Protestant heir, no one had much of a problem with him. It was when James III everything went to Hell. Same here, Charles can be as absolute as he likes, but the people know that he's not immortal, and once he dies, the crown passes to the more moderate Angoulême, or to the reasonably moderate son of Angoulême... at least, this is my opinion.

You think? Personally its hard for me to tell. If Marie-Thérése pushes the point it would be hard for Louis XVIII to tell her no; after all he was well aware of the influence and power she wielded OTL, which would only be expanded here as she's the Mother of France as well. Plus, despite the similarities between the two Restorations and the Restored Kings, Louis XVIII isn't really a Charles II-type figure. I think it will depend on Angoulême; if he sides with their uncle and firmly tells his wife no on the Ultra tutors then we'd have a chance. After all, the Duc rarely put his foot down but on the few times he did so Marie-Thérése demurely supported him. But Angoulême's sons acting as security for Charles X's reign is an interesting idea. I mean the Duc de Bordeaux wasn't able to play that role, but an older Prince might be is what your saying? Gotta say I have a hard time with that one; once he issues the Ordinances of Saint Cloud all bets are off. The only thing that could have saved the reign was a loyal army putting down the Parisian revolution.

 

[JonasResende]

You think? Personally its hard for me to tell. If Marie-Thérése pushes the point it would be hard for Louis XVIII to tell her no; after all he was well aware of the influence and power she wielded OTL, which would only be expanded here as she's the Mother of France as well. Plus, despite the similarities between the two Restorations and the Restored Kings, Louis XVIII isn't really a Charles II-type figure. I think it will depend on Angoulême; if he sides with their uncle and firmly tells his wife no on the Ultra tutors then we'd have a chance. After all, the Duc rarely put his foot down but on the few times he did so Marie-Thérése demurely supported him. But Angoulême's sons acting as security for Charles X's reign is an interesting idea. I mean the Duc de Bordeaux wasn't able to play that role, but an older Prince might be is what your saying? Gotta say I have a hard time with that one; once he issues the Ordinances of Saint Cloud all bets are off. The only thing that could have saved the reign was a loyal army putting down the Parisian revolution.

As I said, it was simply an opinion, although I think you're right in that Angouleme would need to put his weight with Louis XVIII's voice. Same with their son(s). I think Charles X is still going to tread on some very sensitive toes - how can he not? - and may wind up with a revolt (rather than a full-scale revolution) that forces him to rethink his choices. However, I think deposition is still a probable option - the situation might end up with a sort of caretaker regime where Charles stays king in name, but as to the power itself, Angouleme is appointed as co-regent with his father (a la George III/George IV) - although I don't know how likely this is. Probably not very.