WI: Superconducting Super Collider Fully Funded

[RazeByFire]

Like the title says, what if the SSC had been fully funded, even in it's over-budget form.

When would it have actually finished?

It would have been much more powerful than the LHC and built sooner, so when could it have revealed the Higgs Boson? Are there other particle physics mysteries that it would possibly reveal?

Any other knock-on effects you might anticipate, beside the inevitable black hole?

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

Larger cooperation between European and US research organizations. While the European investment in the SSC was not huge it did represent a noticable slice of research funds. when the project was canceled the bulk of that money had been spent and was lost to the participating organizations. this soured a number of research leaders in Europe on further cooperation in US led projects.

Beyond that it added to the perception of unreliable and flakey US politicians who could not be trusted to keep agreements.

 

[viperzero]

Its hard to know what would have been found since it would have been more powerful than anything currently in existence. Might do more to sink the String Theory ship, the LHC has already shaken a lot of faith in that. Not really sure what it could do besides confirm the standard model, if it didn't then obviously their would be a whole new science but who knows what that would be.

 

[Simon]

When the project was cancelled the bulk of that money had been spent and was lost to the participating organisations. This soured a number of research leaders in Europe on further cooperation in US-led projects.

Seriously? Considering how Congress operates and things are funded in the US I'm honestly surprised that the didn't have some of cancellation clause included in the official agreement so that if it was all called off they were due their money back. Enforcing the claim would no doubt be possibly somewhat problematic but I would have expected them to at least try and arrange it as an option, aside from discouraging cancellation of the project in the first place.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

If it had, somehow, managed to get built, it would have been huge. Higher energy than the LHC, and more room for improvement. (Get LHC style magnets into that large a tunnel, and you could get even higher energies yet.)

Basically, the US abdicated world leadership in particle physics, and I don't see how it could ever get it back again.

 

[tomtom34b]

Like the title says, what if the SSC had been fully funded, even in it's over-budget form.

When would it have actually finished?

It would have been much more powerful than the LHC and built sooner, so when could it have revealed the Higgs Boson? Are there other particle physics mysteries that it would possibly reveal?

Any other knock-on effects you might anticipate, beside the inevitable black hole?

Much more powerful???

13 TeV compared to 20 TeV doesnt sound like much more powerful.

 

[RazeByFire]

Much more powerful???

13 TeV compared to 20 TeV doesnt sound like much more powerful.

1 TeV is pretty powerful in my book. The all-wise Wiki lists the LHC at 4-6 TeV. Even accepting 13 for years LHC a difference of 7 TeV is still much more.

Any suggestions of what physics puzzles the SSC would be cracking?

 

[watchman]

But in the end what does it get for you -- more knowledge about an essoteric environment that only exists inside supernovas/quasars and has little realize benefit in the real world???

I haven't heard anything that the work advances fusion technology (other than the minorly incremental). So what else that might result from something so complex and specific (an already mature technology base)

The whole 'black hole' scare was great for media articles but theres nothing substantial in that (and isnt exactly a positive result if it was)

 

[RazeByFire]

But in the end what does it get for you -- more knowledge about an essoteric environment that only exists inside supernovas/quasars and has little realize benefit in the real world???

I haven't heard anything that the work advances fusion technology (other than the minorly incremental). So what else that might result from something so complex and specific (an already mature technology base)

The whole 'black hole' scare was great for media articles but theres nothing substantial in that (and isnt exactly a positive result if it was)

I'm not even going to touch arguments about pure research ' not benefitting the real world'.

Instead I suggest that fusion and other projects might also be advanced by an increased demand and experience in building superconducting magnets and other assorted developments as well as the possible advantages of building the SSC would have on US manufacture of high-end specialty electronics and hardware.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Much more powerful???

13 TeV compared to 20 TeV doesnt sound like much more powerful.

13 Tev (6.5 per beam) vs 20 TeV (per beam, 40 total). 3fold greater.

 

[Mr_ Bondoc]

The project was killed in OTL was seen as an expensive boondoggle during a major recession in 1992, with many seeing the project benefiting particle physicists and the state of Texas. To show how toxic the project was politically, every member of Congress who voted for the project subsequently lost in the 1992 election. So the question becomes how do you make the project politically palatable?

 

[oreocruncher]

The project was killed in OTL was seen as an expensive boondoggle during a major recession in 1992, with many seeing the project benefiting particle physicists and the state of Texas. To show how toxic the project was politically, every member of Congress who voted for the project subsequently lost in the 1992 election. So the question becomes how do you make the project politically palatable?

Maybe have it as like "We need this to beat the Europeans!" or something like that?

 

[Mr_ Bondoc]

Maybe have it as like "We need this to beat the Europeans!" or something like that?

Won't work because opposition leaders in the Democratic Party will point out, all of the benefits go directly back to Texas and no other states. There are no economic benefits that can be easily be reaped from the program, either in Europe or the United States. The last major projects similar in nature at Stanford Linear Accelerator and Lawrence Livermore Labs in California are still operating at a major loss. To make matters worse, the physicists haven't explained what benefits it will accrue for "Joe Six-Pack" (a key Republican voting bloc).

To make matters even more politically ugly is that the site for the Supercollider goes through Native American lands in Waxahachie,Texas, hence the reason the university's mascot is the "Indians"....

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

Seriously? Considering how Congress operates and things are funded in the US I'm honestly surprised that the didn't have some of cancellation clause included in the official agreement so that if it was all called off they were due their money back. Enforcing the claim would no doubt be possibly somewhat problematic but I would have expected them to at least try and arrange it as an option, aside from discouraging cancellation of the project in the first place.

I dont know the details of the contract language in the assorted agreements ect... connected to this. There was bitterness in the related periodicals for some years after. One item favoring the European PoV I recall was in the Wall Street Journal in the mid 1990s. Even with cancelation clauses its not like a check would have been in the mail the next month. Between waiting for reimbursment and delay in redirecting research projects participating European research groups would have had their projects stalled for several years.

 

[deathscompanion1]

Spread out the development over multiple states and pray that some new materials or power generation technique is discovered. Otherwise its too niche to be worth the effort.

 

[fasquardon]

The Europeans (were the Japanese not involved in the SSC?) adding reimbursement clauses could have saved the machine. International efforts where any single partner has to pay more if they want to pull the plug have a decent record of reaching completion.

Saving the SSC would be a huge change in particle physics - the money lost in its cancellation set the field back significantly and America - once a leading country for particle physics, wouldn't be relegated to being a bit player. Indeed, I suspect that building the SSC would be good for American physics in general, since more students will be able to find jobs in physics and some students who start physics because of an interest in particles will end up in other fields of the science. Also, there will be less quants on wallstreet. Almost certainly that is a good thing.

fasquardon

 

[Simon]

The Europeans (were the Japanese not involved in the SSC?) adding reimbursement clauses could have saved the machine. International efforts where any single partner has to pay more if they want to pull the plug have a decent record of reaching completion.

That situation happening with Concorde, the British government found out that it would be only marginally less expensive to withdraw from the project due to cancellation clauses so they decided they might as well keep going, was the inspiration for my suggestion.