WI: Srivijaya Dominates Australia (& Beyond)

Hello all. This is my first attempt at a thread, so please offer suggestions for this, rather crude, timeline.

The basic premise is that, WI, Srivijaya made contact with and established dominance over Australia in the 9th century. It seems perfectly possible, given Srivijaya was a huge maritime power in Southeast Asia at that time, and Australia was literally right below parts of it, Australia being inhabited almost entirely by Paleolithic bands and Australia's rich natural resources, little tapped by the Indigenous Peoples. All that is needed is an expedition to the south, then simply set up some outposts.

Once they established a foothold on the land down under, they would probably not bother with conquest and not force conversion to Srivijayan Dharmic practices, due to respect for other people's ways' being traditional in the Indosphere (but would gladly accept converts); women would probably be treated very well by contemporary standards, as is seen in actual history (see also this piece, which shows that even after the Islamization of Indonesia, women still enjoy a status), and in the nearby Chola Empire.

With the advantage of the vast resources of Australia and their strategic position, I see Srivijaya and the Cholas making a peace (if uneasy, perhaps much like with the Persians and the Ottomans.)

With the precedent of Australia, I see Srivijaya exploring elsewhere and maybe landing on the Pacific coast of South America and allying with the Inka if in the 1400s, or the Chimú if earlier, exchanging ideas and crops, further pushing Srivijaya's progress.

The Srivijayans would easily crush the Portuguese should they dare attack them, given that they would have the advantages of Chinese gunpowder weapons and a huge, advanced navy, while permitting them to trade.

Well, that is all for now; comments, suggestions &/or questions welcome! BTW, if anyone is better informed on Medieval South & Southeast Asia, could they help me with relations with India and the feasibly of contact with the Americas before the Europeans. Thank You all for your prompt responses!
 
Hi there,

First off, fun idea, please don't allow yourself to become distracted by naysayers. I think that it would be fascinating to see an elaborate timeline on Srivijaya.

I've been doing the Axis of Andes timeline, and what I find is that working with an obscure corner of the world which isn't the United States or Europe, it's quite valuable and useful to do some research and educate your audience interms of the background and underlying economics, culture and politics of the region.

So, my advice is to first start out with a portrait of Srivijaya and its neighbors. I think that you'll find a worthwhile POD arises from that.
 
Thank you for your support! I will do more research on Srivijaya soon, when I can go to the library.
 

Rex Romanum

Banned
Srivijaya was a coastal trading empire and a thalassocracy, similar with Carthaginian empire in ancient Mediterranean. The Srivijayan Maharaja only maintained loose control by using alliance with local chiefs in the interiors.

So the possibility of Srivijaya established colonies in Australia is not really implausible, but you must find a VERY good reason for the Srivijayans to come into Australia in the first place.

A much more successes would really help: conquered the entirety of Java island, weakened the Chola dynasty in Southern India, and maintained a very close relationship with Song dynasty in China would be nice.

As an Indonesian, I'm always interested with the possibility of the Indonesians dominated Australia before the Europeans did. :D
So good luck with your project!
 
The colonization of Australia could be simply to acquire trading posts with the interior tribes. The Srivijaya would look for more places to trade and end up with Australia, which has resources unavailable in the Indonesian archipelago. The natives, being of a less developed society, would be eager to trade those resources for metal. The amount of wealth generated by trade there would prompt conquest, making it only a matter of discovering the continent.

The point is that Australia would beckon to be colonized if and when discovered and explored.
 
It makes perfect sense that the Srivijayans would come to Australia, due to the largely untapped natural resources. The Cholas could be weakened quite easily, but I do not know of a specific battle where they could turn the tide. I do not know why Srivijaya would need to have close relations with the Song Chinese.

Australia probably would become a beacon for Srivijaya, and thus colonization would be relatively straightforward. I think what I said earlier about the interaction with the Indigenous Australians would be quite plausible, given cultural factors.
 
It makes perfect sense that the Srivijayans would come to Australia, due to the largely untapped natural resources...

What specific natural resources does Australia have that would be of interest to Srivijayan traders? Would Indonesian crops work in the dryer, more temperate climate and poorer soils of Australia?

Would Srivijayan interests and expansion be directed more towards the Indonesian and Phillipine Archipelagos, or northward towards Indochina and Taiwan?

By the way, have you used the search functions here to see of anyone else has done work on Srivijaya?
 
Sailors from Makassar (sp?) fished for sea cucumbers of the northern coast of Australia beginning in the 1700s because sea cucumbers were valued in China. Maybe that will help?
 

Riain

Banned
I don't want to be too much of a naysayer but the resources of the north aren't particularly exploitable with 9thC technology. The metal seams aren't particularly rich, which is why it is mined with open cut methods, to take out huge amount of ore to processing.
 

Rex Romanum

Banned
The Cholas could be weakened quite easily, but I do not know of a specific battle where they could turn the tide.
I will suggest the year of 1025 AD, when the Chola king, Rajendra Chola, successfully conquered Kedah and occupied it for sometime. After which the Cholas continued their raids on Srivijayan territory, and gravely weakened Srivijayan hegemony as well as enabled the formation of agriculture-based kingdoms, like Kediri (and its successor, Singhasari), instead of trade-based ones.
And since it was Singhasari that in the year of 1288 AD conquered Palembang and put an end to Srivijayan empire, I think its quite important to prevent its formation (hence my suggestion about the total conquest of Java island).

I do not know why Srivijaya would need to have close relations with the Song Chinese.

Well, since Song dynasty was a VERY sophisticated civilization, the adoption of its military and technology won't really bad. Not to mention a possible joint military expedition in Indochina...
 

Rex Romanum

Banned
I don't want to be too much of a naysayer but the resources of the north aren't particularly exploitable with 9thC technology. The metal seams aren't particularly rich, which is why it is mined with open cut methods, to take out huge amount of ore to processing.

How about the eastern coast? AFAIK it is the most suitable place to colonize...
 
this looks quite original and refreshing. I'd love to see it become a full TL.

May I suggest that before embarking into any cross-pacific adventure you make become the Srivijaya a more centralized power?

just the potential of an outward asian power makes me smile (with or without an american involvement, the window would be pretty tight to be competitive with the Spanish).
 
All that is needed is an expedition to the south, then simply set up some outposts.

All that's needed huh? Because colonization is just so easy and obvious, and more of your colour on the map means you're doing better :rolleyes:.

No mention of the metals deposits being inaccessable and requiring considerable processing, the soils having terrible fertility and the Indonesian agricultural package being completely unsuited for it or the Australia rainfall patterns? Or the difficulty of winds and currents meaning its a hell of a lot longer than as the crow flies from Srivijaya's core?

If anything I think the cross pacific expedition is more likely than colonising Australia at this stage, with those tools.
 
Nugax: Well, if the Makassar could get their from Sulawesi, and they had far less resources at their disposal than the Srivijayans (or for that matter the Torres Strait Islanders of New Guinea, which had its coast colonized by the Polynesians; both of whom far less developed than the Srivijayans), then why could the Srivijayans, with their advanced shipbuilding technologies and merchant-strong economy not get to Australia, despite the less-than ideal winds?

Besides, due to the fact that Srivijayans were a trading people, why would they not simply do what the Makassar did 800 or so years later, but on a much larger scale; furthermore, given their trade with China and India, why could they not get the crops they would need to grow from trade? Anyways, rice, a staple of the Southeast Asians has been shown to grow in the Murray River quite well, and all the tropical crops could be grown with ease on the Top End, which is mostly tropical rainforest, and many crops the Srivijayans had can grow in most of Australia, such as Eggplant, sesame, mung beans soy beans, bamboo, cotton, &c., not to mention the crucial water buffalo, which, even in actual history, is abundant as an introduced species. Besides, even today, all the people in Australia could more efficiently replace all their mutton, beef and other foreign meats (and thus a huge portion of their protein) with hunted animals; kangaroo is rapidly growing in popularity in Australia.

Australia need not support a large population; it just needs to support a couple million people to extract the resources, which is perfectly feasible given the size of the continent, despite its soil quality.
 
I think that still begs the question, what, if anything can Srivijaya get from Australia that it can't get faster and cheaper from somewhere else?

Mines and mineral resources? For the most part, no. As has been mentioned, a lot of the mineral deposits in northern and western Australia aren't really accessible with 9th century technology. And of course, a lot of it is inland and therefore not really conveniently accessible. There's no local population, really, to mine it, refine it and convert it to an exportable format (the indigenous hunter gatherers unlikely to take up the mining lifestyle.

Now possibly, you might get some currency with amber or jade or a gemstone source. Extremely high value, easily portable luxury items might justify. But I think you'll have to demonstrate that.

Same thing with biological resources. What plants or animals of Australia would Srivijaya have a desperate need or use for. Consider the situation of the fur trade in North America - Europe around that time was going through the mini-Ice age, there was a desperate need for fur clothing for warmth. That market continued for a long time. Obviously, in tropical latitudes there's no demand for a fur trade. But is there anything else? A medicine, an aphrodisiac, an incense, a spice, a narcotic, anything?

Keep in mind that trade goods must be portable, very portable, and must be valuable enough to justify the time and expense of going to get them.

Unlike South East Asia, or China, or India, Australia has no indigenous civilization, no manufacturing, no crafts, no silks or metals or metallurgy or ceramics. There's no one really to trade with, except hunter gatherers, and there's a limit to what they can offer.

So you'll have to think carefully about that....
 

Cook

Banned
The colonization of Australia could be simply to acquire trading posts with the interior tribes...The natives, being of a less developed society, would be eager to trade those resources for metal.

The point is that Australia would beckon to be colonized if and when discovered and explored.



South East Asians were well aware of the existence of Northern Australia and routinely fished near there, as mentioned by 8Deer. There are various rock art pictures in The Kimberley’s of fishing boats with sails.

But the indigenous tribes had nothing to trade and if you arrive on the Northern and Western coast you are presented with a terrain that by S.E. Asian standards is extremely barren and inhospitable; it is not country beckonning to rice farmers and traders. And since further travel along the coast just offers a couple of thousand kilometres of the same, why would a trader keep going?

Concerning recourses, the northern most Gold Seam is Halls Creek; 360 km from the coast!
 

Cook

Banned
How about the eastern coast? AFAIK it is the most suitable place to colonize...

Going past the Polynesian tribes of New Guinea, same problem; they have little to offer in trade and nothing to inspire an intrepid trading entrepreneur.
 

archaeogeek

Banned
Going past the Polynesian tribes of New Guinea, same problem; they have little to offer in trade and nothing to inspire an intrepid trading entrepreneur.

New Guinea has no polynesian tribes. They're papuan. If anything, the polynesians would actually have trading potential, one of the problem is going to be the viral shock, which was pretty bad for the pacific islanders too.
 
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