WI: Spanish Camels in Spanish North America

IOTL, Spain had had camel populations since the 11th century, brought over by the Arabs. After they began colonizing the New World, there were limited introductions of camels in the 17th and 18th centuries but nothing large scale.

So, what if the Spanish had gone through with earlier large scale introduction and usage of camels in New Spain ? With it’s more arid north, wouldn’t camels would do better for transportation of people and goods across the deserts, scrublands and mountains than horses ? What impact might large scale camel usage have on both Spanish colonization and on native peoples?
 
Horses are less temperamental and more easily trained, from what I hear. I assume that explains why pretty much any camel-using culture would also use horses sometimes as well. If horses can do the job, you'd prefer to use a horse.
 
Horses are less temperamental and more easily trained, from what I hear. I assume that explains why pretty much any camel-using culture would also use horses sometimes as well. If horses can do the job, you'd prefer to use a horse.

Right but we are talking about the arid/semi-arid environments which camels are still better suited toward due to their food/water needs.
 
That sounds like an interesting concept, to be honest.

One question, though: When exactly would they be introduced in this scenario? I could imagine that they could be very useful for transportation at an early time of Spanish colonisation, and therefore help speeding up the exploration and also creation of infrastructure.
 
That sounds like an interesting concept, to be honest.

One question, though: When exactly would they be introduced in this scenario? I could imagine that they could be very useful for transportation at an early time of Spanish colonisation, and therefore help speeding up the exploration and also creation of infrastructure.

I think an introduction in the 1500s would have the most impact because that’s when the Spanish were sending explorers all over the places
 
I think an introduction in the 1500s would have the most impact because that’s when the Spanish were sending explorers all over the places
That sounds like a pretty good reason for why camels would be required because northern Mexico and the American southwest is pretty desert like so they’d be useful
 
That sounds like a pretty good reason for why camels would be required because northern Mexico and the American southwest is pretty desert like so they’d be useful

Pretty much. Since they require water and food far less often than horses, they're better suited for exploring and mapping out northern Mexico and the American southwest. Who knows, maybe with camels we end up with an earlier discovery of Californian gold.
 
That sounds like a pretty good reason for why camels would be required because northern Mexico and the American southwest is pretty desert like so they’d be useful
And yet, OTL, when missions to the Colorado River regions were contemplated in the later 18th century, after the Spanish had been in control of Mexico for over 2 centuries, it did not occur to anyone to send some camels to assist either explorers or the missionaries or the soldiers sent out to support and defend the missionaries.

Still less had this been done at earlier times when explorers were searching for legendary "cities of gold." Sensibly enough, if a region was going to be rich enough to support a Cibola worth conquering, presumably the climate would not be arid! Horses would do anywhere worth conquering, was apparently the prevailing wisdom such as it was.

The Spanish were not very interested in expanding into their claimed territory merely to have someone actually in occupation for Spain; if a given claim was not being actively threatened they left it on paper until it became expedient to actually occupy it--and California for instance they did not occupy, until they came to fear that if they didn't the Russians might pre-empt them. But then they were setting up missions along the coast, which would be good enough to block Russian attempts to recruit supporters. Certainly "California" as we conceive it today has extensive tracts in the southeast where camels would come in handy...but the coastal missions need never worry about having hegemony far inland like that, though I suppose a mission was set up in San Bernadino.

I am not sure what motivated the earlier mission arc sent to the Colorado river; they certainly could have used some camels there yet apparently this never came up as any kind of serious plan.

Now had they done so, I suppose one consequence would have been a gradual expansion of the reach of the missionized arc, drawing more missionaries to go beyond the river itself deep into the Great Basin. But this would be a slow process, and it only got started in the mid-18th century, so even if it proceeds apace to say 1850 it only has a century to work. By then feral camel bands might have established themselves and various Basin peoples adopted them beyond the direct political reach of Spain.

I've wondered before how plausible it might be for either a Spanish Viceroyality of New Spain or independent Mexico to hang on to her territory claims west of the ridge line of the Rockies by means of recruiting and organizing auxiliaries among the Native people, with Plains peoples being settled on the east slope of the Rockies and with development of the lands around the Salt Lake supporting both resettled exilic Plains peoples and Basin peoples. Salt Lake is a "tent peg" if you will to the north, with Santa Fe being the "peg" to the south. With a suitable reinforcement of regular Spanish/Mexican troops shuffled in among the native auxiliaries, perhaps Mexico/New Spain can make it quite costly for the Yankees to penetrate to the Continental Divide and therefore give up on making claims. This might not stop the seizure of California--but OTL, forces involved in this maneuvering did come over land; if a layered defense, with strong Mexico-Spanish forces reinforced by Native allies serving as numerous light cavalry blunt and decimate US troops followed by any breaking through being harassed, delayed, tracked and possibly defeated by concentrations of Hispano-Native forces intercepting them before they reach California, then the rebelling and Yankee forces in California are only reinforced by sea, and I would think if Spain or Mexico could orchestrate this Native-heavy defense of the interior borders, they could dispatch more loyalist force to hold California too--especially if the more astute state this implies has minimized Californio disloyalty. Maybe a determined enough US effort can seize California or parts of it and get at least a portion of CA annexed at the peace table--but if US forces must divert to the north to accomplish objectives such as seizing Santa Fe, and then face determined resistance organized to the west and north not utterly dependent on Santa Fe, the Yankees have to try to take the Salt Lake region too to break the line, and perhaps in an ATL where camels have been introduced 100 years before and Spanish/Mexican soft power among the Basin natives is considerable, even losing both Salt Lake and Santa Fe might not be the end of Hispanic/Native lines of communication and bastions in the interior. A major diversion of US force to New Mexico and Utah, and all along the Rocky Mountain front in between, removes force from the main offensive into Mexico itself, and a more competent New Spain/Mexico may limit their successes there too.

I don't doubt that by 1850, the USA can muster sufficient force to bull through, in a long determined war--provided that in the mean time the Americans don't make enemies of Great Britain coming into co-belligerence or full alliance with whoever controls Mexico. But a stronger Mexico (even one that previously slipped up enough for Texas to be seized) would tend to make the option of diverting general Yankee jingoism against Mexico, and toward Britain--as things were OTL it took some fancy dancing on Polk's part to keep the confrontation with Britain peaceful and diplomatic, nor was the USA deeply and unreservedly determined to attack Mexico. If a war focused solely on Mexico proves costly and inglorious initially, settling terms leaving Mexico in far more possession than OTL seems entirely possible, and claiming California as a discontiguous enclave is less likely.

Now against this, first of all the Spanish and the Mexicans were not exactly welcomed with open arms by Native people. Perhaps by the mid-1840s substantial numbers of them in the Basin interior can be convinced the Hispanic devil they know is greatly preferable to the Anglo devil they know of by terrible rumor, especially if over the course of a century missionary efforts supplemented by Spanish/Mexican troops using camels pursuing a very judicious policy of conversion by persuasion and bribery through favorable trade terms can improve these relations over the OTL prevailing standards; if they can do that in the great northern interior, perhaps Native-Hispanic relations in New Mexico are much better.

OTL the people, even the highly Hispanized elites of Nuevo Mexico, were dismayed and outraged by false rumors that Santa Anna proposed to sell NM to the USA to buy the Yankees off general war with Mexico, and gave no resistance to the invading US troops sent to secure Santa Fe. Later, not much later, they became dismayed at blatantly bigoted treatment and offered some resistance but by then it was a bit late for them. NM's Mexican garrison was a pathetically tiny force too. But if that garrison were more in line with the value of NM, especially a NM guarding a tenuous but huge empire inland to the west, and relations between the locals and the central government were less poor, I think the US would have had to send a lot more men toward Santa Fe and they'd have no easy walk to it, nor would managing to take it be the end of the story of Nuevo Mexico fighting.

Honestly, it would take more than camels alone to turn the tide--but the lack of consideration given this option OTL suggests to me it would take a deep POD to introduce the camels at all, and a policy doing so could well be an aspect of a far more astute New Spain administration that perhaps has learned to better incorporate the native peoples who dominated their far north. Perhaps such a New Spain would undertake light-handed but firm expansion northward in a far less desultory and late fashion, explore the great interior more fully, learn of mineral wealth to be mined there, set up suitable colonies in places like the Salt Lake area to support stronger forces as well as cultivating selected Native allies as a matter of course. Perhaps there would be no Pueblo Revolt and thus hiatus in Spanish power in New Mexico, perhaps a substantial and loyal population in California would secure their west flank long before it weakly attempted to OTL.

If any substantial Spanish expansion puts any significant number of Spanish-loyal persons in the Sacramento River valley, they will discover gold there; perhaps the kind of regime I am talking about can manage to maintain strong government control of the gold fields and thus manage to see to it that the incoming population is loyalist; meanwhile the gold itself is going to be a major thing for the Spanish state. A suitable policy to keep control probably involves the state having to wisely forgo attempting to confiscate all the gold to itself, permitting the lion's share of it to remain in the hands of the soldiers recruited to serve there--but these soldiers will have little better to do than to continue to serve, while staking claims to excellent land and using their fortunes (badly discounted by regional inflation locally of course) to import goods to the Bay Area, where their descendants can jump-start a major agricultural and urban area essentially purchased by all that private-hands gold, which is thus dispersed gradually onto world markets.

If meanwhile exploration, trade and missionizing of the interior assisted by camel transport has been going on, finds of more gold and silver in the interior can attract more population there, jump-starting regions like OTL northwest Nevada in the Washoe-Tahoe area as agricultural zones to feed dispersed mining populations, their output funneling to the Bay to sustain Bay Area California as a major developed center, with population meanwhile taking some very good farm and ranch land under cultivation.
 
IOTL, Spain had had camel populations since the 11th century, brought over by the Arabs. After they began colonizing the New World, there were limited introductions of camels in the 17th and 18th centuries but nothing large scale.

So, what if the Spanish had gone through with earlier large scale introduction and usage of camels in New Spain ? With it’s more arid north, wouldn’t camels would do better for transportation of people and goods across the deserts, scrublands and mountains than horses ? What impact might large scale camel usage have on both Spanish colonization and on native peoples?
It is quite unlikely as use of camels were strongly associated to Muslims, and as it happened with other perceived 'Muslim customs' like rice cultivation, were increasingly rejected in peninsular Spain, first after 1492 and definitely after 1608.

Use of camels survived in the Canary islands for practical purposes and these limited introductions in America came from these islands. So it is quite unlikely that the Canary islands alone could provide enough stock of camels for any large scale introduction,
 
It is quite unlikely as use of camels were strongly associated to Muslims, and as it happened with other perceived 'Muslim customs' like rice cultivation, were increasingly rejected in peninsular Spain, first after 1492 and definitely after 1608.

Use of camels survived in the Canary islands for practical purposes and these limited introductions in America came from these islands. So it is quite unlikely that the Canary islands alone could provide enough stock of camels for any large scale introduction,

So how would we prevent or at least delay the the demise of the camel, rice, etc. in Spain after the fall of Granada ? The first camels arrived in the Canary islands in 1405 so it’s not like the Spanish were originally against them.
 
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So, what if the Spanish had gone through with earlier large scale introduction and usage of camels in New Spain ? With its more arid north, wouldn’t camels would do better for transportation of people and goods across the deserts, scrublands and mountains than horses ? What impact might large scale camel usage have on both Spanish colonization and on native peoples?
In the late 1850s, the United States introduced camels into the American Southwest at the instigation of the US Secretary of War Jefferson Davis. This experience could probably have been duplicated by the Spanish explorers earlier. Wikipedia says “While the camels proved to be hardy and well suited to travel through the region, the Army declined to adopt them for military use”.

The quotes below are from this Wikipedia article: United States Camel Corps

These are the locations and the types of camels that were acquired in the Middle East and brought to Texas.
Wikipedia said:
Major Wayne was assigned to procure the camels. On June 4, 1855, Wayne departed New York City on board the USS Supply, under the command of then Lieutenant David Dixon Porter. After arriving in the Mediterranean Sea, Wayne and Porter began procuring camels. Stops included Goletta (Tunisia), Malta, Greece, Turkey, and Egypt. They acquired 33 animals (19 females and 14 males), including two Bactrian, 29 dromedary, one dromedary calf, and one booghdee (a cross between a male Bactrian and a female dromedary).

The two officers also acquired pack saddles and covers, being certain that proper saddles could not be purchased in the United States. Wayne and Porter hired five camel drivers, some Arab and some Turkish, and on February 15, 1856, USS Supply set sail for Texas.

On Davis's orders, Porter sailed again for Egypt to acquire more camels The newly acquired animals joined the first herd at Camp Verde, which had been officially designated as the camel station. The Army had seventy camels.

The camels performed extremely well compared to the mules.
Wikipedia said:
Each camel carried a load of 600 pounds. Beale wrote very favorably about the camels' endurance and packing abilities. Among his comments was that he would rather have one camel than four mules.

…the expedition set out for the mouth of Independence Creek to test the camels' ability to survive without water. The distance traveled was about 85 miles at four miles per hour. The camels showed no desire for water during the trip, but were watered upon arrival.

The party then set out on a 114-mile, four-day journey to Fort Davis near the Rio Grande. During this segment of the journey, one of the camels was bitten on its leg by a rattlesnake; the wound was treated and the animal suffered no ill effects. Upon reaching Fort Davis, the horses and mules were distressed, but the camels were not. After a three-day rest, the expedition returned directly to Fort Stockton. Hartz wrote that "the superiority of the camel for military purposes in the badly-watered sections of the country seems to be well established.

Robert E. Lee, serving in the American Southwest, was also favorably impressed with the camels’ abilities.
Wikipedia said:
Robert E. Lee had first seen the camels in 1857….(He sent them out on a reconnaissance)…The camels again performed better than the mules did. As the march continued through extremely dry country, Echols feared for the lives of his men and the animals. On the fifth day, the party reached San Francisco Creek, a tributary of the Rio Grande, with almost no water left. Three mules died on this leg of the journey; all of the camels survived.

Lee wrote to Adjutant General Samuel Cooper "...of camels whose endurance, docility and sagacity will not fail to attract attention of the Secretary of War, and but for whose reliable services the reconnaissance would have failed."

These camels’ story was shown on two Westerns on American TV: “Maverick” and “Death Valley Days”
 
Although this is in South America not North I wonder how Camels would have done i the Atacama Desert as it was colonized by Spain? They likely would have been able to tolerate the heat but it's really high in terms of altitude and extremely dry.
 
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Although this is in South America not North I wonder how Camels would have done i the Atacama Desert as it was colonized by Spain? They likely would have been able to tolerate the heat but it's really high in terms of altitude and extremely dry.

Bactrian camels are good for high altitudes aren’t they ?
 
So how would we prevent or at least delay the the demise of the camel, rice, etc. in Spain after the fall of Granada ? The first camels arrived in the Canary islands in 1405 so it’s not like the Spanish were originally against them.
Well, you would need a PoD that would have required to change the mindset of Christian Iberia back then, so I find this extremely unlikely. Christians in Iberia heavily opposed the maintenance of 'Muslim customs' in 'reconquered' core territories outside the Morisco communities (until they were expelled in 1608); only some practices (mostly related to agriculture, like the cultivation of some citrics) survived because they were so integrated into the Christian society that they could not identify as originally 'Muslim' anymore.

The Canary islands were not considered in the same way of peninsular Spain, they were an African possession like Ceuta, Oran etc., so the Spanish colonists were more tolerant and practical there.
 
Well, you would need a PoD that would have required to change the mindset of Christian Iberia back then, so I find this extremely unlikely. Christians in Iberia heavily opposed the maintenance of 'Muslim customs' in 'reconquered' core territories outside the Morisco communities (until they were expelled in 1608); only some practices (mostly related to agriculture, like the cultivation of some citrics) survived because they were so integrated into the Christian society that they could not identify as originally 'Muslim' anymore.

The Canary islands were not considered in the same way of peninsular Spain, they were an African possession like Ceuta, Oran etc., so the Spanish colonists were more tolerant and practical there.

Hmmm. I know they wouldn’t be able to do it on a large scale but if a Canary Islander went to Mexico early on in the 1500s post conquest with a few camels and saw that they performed well in the arid parts of Mexico, couldn’t they import more ? It might just be something that starts small but early enough to have larger impacts later on ?
 
Hmmm. I know they wouldn’t be able to do it on a large scale but if a Canary Islander went to Mexico early on in the 1500s post conquest with a few camels and saw that they performed well in the arid parts of Mexico, couldn’t they import more ? It might just be something that starts small but early enough to have larger impacts later on ?
I'd think this should be entirely possible, but the fact that we had zero camel introduction by Spanish or even Mexican authorities in the entire period from say 1550 to 1850, plus all the history of Mexico beyond that, makes me feel it is (sadly, given the great potentials possible) a long shot at best. Meanwhile Uncle Sam went ahead and spent scarce pre ACW money on a perfectly successful venture in which the camels proved quite useful in the Southwest indeed, and it seems the whole venture was abandoned with prejudice entirely because it was politically tainted by the association of the treasonous Jefferson Davis with his patronage.

Perhaps in an ATL, we can have a situation where the CSA (mainly, probably, Texan!) threat to the Southwest was escalated to a greater degree, ideally in a later war year than the OTL Texan attempt to take New Mexico Territory and bridge over to rebels in southern California, and pragmatism forces the Union forces (including the New Mexico territorial militia which did the job of parrying the Texan invasion adequately OTL) to use the camels remaining in the region as best they can, and finding them useful and the job of fighting Texas not yet done, import some more, which should go far toward wiping away the political stain. Surely such a redoubled Texan attempt would involve them using camels too.

But fundamentally, post-ACW, the USA was no longer majorly engaged. Now to be sure, the US army now had a lot of "Indian" fighting to do, much of it in the Southwest. Combined with heavy camel usage during the ACW, possibly the camel cavalry/pack trains will sustain themselves but the bias is toward using horses, which are abundantly available all over the USA and which most US Army recruits would be far more accustomed to. By brute forcing adequate supply lines, the liability of equines (horses doing both cavalry and hauling work, supplemented by donkeys and mules) as thirsty and less able to forage off Southwestern arid land vegetation is offset by maintaining depots which despite stringent post-CW military budgets such a vast and per capita rich power as the USA can afford to maintain and intensify. Operations ranging far from secured supply depots would favor shifting to camels, but the more such operations are needed, the more depot-bases will be established and maintained, and eventually the Native resistance is broken, the survivors moved to secured reservations, and the military necessity retreats.

Meanwhile the railroads were already a major factor in America east of the Mississippi and indeed a system of transcontinental lines was impeded by sectional politics (though I suppose had slavery by some ASB magic not been an issue dividing the nation and creating all sorts of associated other political fault lines, it would hardly have been technically or economically possible to have even one such line in operation a lot earlier than OTL anyway). Once the "iron horse" is operational, the days of either horses or camels as long range pack transport are numbered and reserved for the most rustic and marginal regions; the big job of overland hauling mass quantities of goods shifts to the railroads whose capacity soon dwarfs the most heroic system of animal-drawn roads one could imagine. The regional utility of camels, especially because barring transit across it and some marginal mining the Southwest is about as marginal and rustic as one can get in CONUS, ought to have resulted in some notable expansion of their use until later displaced by internal combustion automobile trucks and jeeps, which would not happen until the latter half of the 20th century on a great scale (well, the 1920s at the earliest!) And yet, OTL, the opportunity did exist for camels as civil pack animals and post rider steeds most certainly did exist even without any guvmint patronage. The article on the Camel Corps mentions an attempt to use camels to run mail from eastern NM territory to southern California, and mentions that the authorities involved apparently on both ends objected, but does not clarify why they had issues with their mail being delivered. Perhaps horses were faster, when adequately fed and watered? The hired Syrian born driver often known to Americans as "Hi Jolly" whom we can see has his own entry at Wikipedia incorporated them in various enterprises in numerous locations--yet even he eventually gave up and sold them off. I am not sure why--if the reason they were not much favored by other entrepreneurs was that he had special skill with them that did not transfer easily, I don't know why he personally threw in the towel--perhaps he was getting old for the hard work involved and had made his fortune sufficiently well, and it seemed more trouble than it was worth to train up successors and hand the marginal business off to them?

I like the idea of the Spanish or anyway Mexican regimes introducing them earlier because Native people could adapt themselves to them; they have neither the Anglos' prejudices for horses nor their deep pockets to maintain extravagant supply lines, so their inherent regional advantage over horses would favor them I'd think.

Certainly one reason that Spanish prejudices have great weight here is that the Spanish colonial system did apply some pretty strong top-down control, avoiding all sorts of opportunities to foster more extensive development of the vast potentials under their control lest that control become problematic! As I mentioned, it is a POD in itself to have the New Spain authorities pay any serious attention to these vast scarcely examined tracts that showed up as such impressive areas on maps of North America; they simply had little idea what was lying around there, once they satisfied themselves there were no new editions of Tenochtitlan or other great "Cibolas" to quickly overwhelm and set up in profitable lordship over, it sufficed that they need not anticipate any security threats to what they did profit from to just leave them alone, provided other great powers also kept hands off. Therefore as I noted, not much reason to venture off the relatively well watered and vegetated paths where horses served them quite well to roam around in these scrublands. I suspect we should read up on the mission projects in the Colorado river region which preceded the California coastal missions, for our best shot at finding someone with connections back to Spain, or better yet for this purpose, the Canaries or Spanish holdings in Morocco, motivated to bring them in for utility purposes. But as noted the prejudice against anything "Moorish" was centered in the Reconquista shaped Spanish Catholic identity, and of course a mission project of Catholic priests and friars could be expected to be the very nucleus of such bigotry and scorn. To be sure, if we could plausibly narrate the Brothers deciding to accept dromedaries, their say-so that it was OK and Catholic enough ought to be pretty final!

Anyway even this project was late, in the latter half of the 18th century, so there is just one century window or less for Southwestern Native people to learn to adopt dromedaries and start exploiting their potentials before Anglo-Americans are showing up in huge demographic force.

i suppose we need a double POD, one where the Spanish resolve to enter the arid lands in force considerably earlier, and in circumstances where Castilian prejudices be damned, the authorities in charge see camels are what is needed. It should be noted that while the Spanish brought horses with them way back during Cortez's operations, they generally kept control of them as a force multiplying asset, and some people believe that the population of North American mustang wild horses which the various Plains peoples adopted were descendants of the Spanish garrison horses of Sante Fe turned loose in the Pueblo Revolt in the middle 17th century. We might expect then that even if with an early and major Spanish operation deep into Ardidamerica, say because of an actual super-early pre-Columbian POD of some major ATL civilization being centered there somehow, the Spanish once victorious there would hold their camels in tight rein and they might not get loose for another century or more.

So our early PODs can hardly be too early!
 
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