Eastern Europe is known for remaining pagan even long after the rest of Europe had Christianized with it even many people remaining pagan in Russia centuries after it's conversion. The main POD is simply that instead of converting to orthodox Christianity, Vladimir instead remains pagan and simply makes the Slavic faith more centralized/organized. Could an openly pagan Russia resist the inevitable onslaught of crusades that would follow and how would it affect the rest of Eastern Europe?
WI: Russia remained pagan
- Thread starter Billy the Goat
- Start date
Vladimir was doing exactly that since 980, and then after 8 years of implementing this "organized paganism" decided it won't work.
then i guess it's more accurate to ask what if Vladimir decided to continue with his reformed paganism efforts and succeeded.
Concerned Brazilian
Gone Fishin'
They would likely be Christianized after Lithuania did a crusade in the 1400s.
Vladimir of Suzdal or some other Rus emperor refused to convert to Islam due to their opposition to alcohol (at least as tradition goes)
Vladimir of Suzdal or some other Rus emperor refused to convert to Islam due to their opposition to alcohol (at least as tradition goes)
Svyatoslav tried to remain pagan. Circumstances of his death are a little bit on a mysterious side. During his reign there was already a strong Christian party in Kiev and probably elsewhere. Power of the Russian princes was far from being absolute and chance for this scenario to last is not very good.
Due to the purely logistical consideration and the fact that most of the neighbors to the West and North converted even later, chances for these crusades to materialize with any meaningful success prior to the mid-XIII (to be specific, before 1237) are not good.
Hmm, 1237.
This date is important kids, because it is Mongol invasion time, yes?
Would pagan Rus states have more of their population enrollable into Mongolian horde and usable for further Mongol raiding and conquest and tribute taking deeper into North European Plain?
Yep.
Nope. 😜
The Mongols were completely indifferent to the religious aspect and the only thing they did care about was ability of the recruits to act as a part of their army (skills in horsemanship, archery, etc.). I doubt that religion would have serious impact on these qualifications. The horse archers were definitely a part of the pre-Mongolian Russian military system but I have no idea about the scope of a possible recruitment (if any).
Later, Khublai had Russian tumen as a part of his Guards but by that time there was plenty of infantry in his army so this factoid tells little.
@alexmilman is right to suggest that continued pagan Russians would not have had any serious worries about getting 'Crusaded' by Christians until after they had plenty bigger worries about getting Mongol'ed around 1237. And it would be fairly consistent in all the prior years that nomads coming from the east - pechenegs, polovtsy, patzinaks, cumans, would be scarier than any menace incoming from the west up until that time.
But Christian influence had gotten a hold and a lobby within Kiev for a good while before Vladimir committed to conversion.
But, if you did somehow keep the Christian (and Muslim) shares of population (and elite!) low and marginalized and that let retention of a pagan state religion be viable for centuries more, there would be some interesting consequences. There would be lower literacy and no standardized script for Russian, but possibly Orthodox Christians using Cyrillic, some people importing Latin, others Norse Futhark, other Arabic, and maybe a synthetic native script developed.
Presuming paganism lasts through 1237 and the Mongols, by that point it is also after 1204 and Eastern Orthodoxy has lost most of its prestige. So Russia, or southern and eastern parts of it may be as likely to follow Golden Horde leadership in taking Islam and Arabic script as anything. It taking Christianity Russians, or some of them in the west and north would most likely take the Latin version the HRE, Poland, Hungary, and Scandinavia practice, and adopt the Latin script that goes with it.
But Christian influence had gotten a hold and a lobby within Kiev for a good while before Vladimir committed to conversion.
There were even some accounts from 100 years before Vladimir of the Kievans being Christian or having many Christians, so you would need to change some internal dynamics in the society.
But, if you did somehow keep the Christian (and Muslim) shares of population (and elite!) low and marginalized and that let retention of a pagan state religion be viable for centuries more, there would be some interesting consequences. There would be lower literacy and no standardized script for Russian, but possibly Orthodox Christians using Cyrillic, some people importing Latin, others Norse Futhark, other Arabic, and maybe a synthetic native script developed.
Presuming paganism lasts through 1237 and the Mongols, by that point it is also after 1204 and Eastern Orthodoxy has lost most of its prestige. So Russia, or southern and eastern parts of it may be as likely to follow Golden Horde leadership in taking Islam and Arabic script as anything. It taking Christianity Russians, or some of them in the west and north would most likely take the Latin version the HRE, Poland, Hungary, and Scandinavia practice, and adopt the Latin script that goes with it.
If they resist Orthodox Christianity and ended up reforming Slavic Paganism, There are three Different Ways this might turned out.
1. Teutonic Knights DEUS VULTing them into accepting Catholicism somewhere around the Baltic Crusades, but with more Hardcore Wars. Most likely.
2. Tatar Muslims eventually spreading Islam there, ironically more through gradual cultural osmosis and trade, like what happened in Central Asia, with Northern, more hostile Lands being Pagan Holdouts that will eventually being incorporated by Christian Scandinavians. Likely.
3. The Pagan Russkies managed to kick Crusading Christians while holding tight on their Vodka bottle and forced the Muslim Tatars to chug down the good old Aqua Vitae and revert to Tengrism. Expect the new Slaviv Paganism to have ended up influenced by Tangri and Buddhist beliefs as well, that made Russia more similar to Siberia and non-Islamized Parts of Central Asia. Least Likely
1. Teutonic Knights DEUS VULTing them into accepting Catholicism somewhere around the Baltic Crusades, but with more Hardcore Wars. Most likely.
2. Tatar Muslims eventually spreading Islam there, ironically more through gradual cultural osmosis and trade, like what happened in Central Asia, with Northern, more hostile Lands being Pagan Holdouts that will eventually being incorporated by Christian Scandinavians. Likely.
3. The Pagan Russkies managed to kick Crusading Christians while holding tight on their Vodka bottle and forced the Muslim Tatars to chug down the good old Aqua Vitae and revert to Tengrism. Expect the new Slaviv Paganism to have ended up influenced by Tangri and Buddhist beliefs as well, that made Russia more similar to Siberia and non-Islamized Parts of Central Asia. Least Likely
A Pagan Russia would have been probably similar to Medieval Lithuania which remained pagan until 1387. They only stopped being pagan when Grand Duke Jogaila married Jadwiga the Queen of Poland to form the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth.
In terms of Western Crusaders - this happened anyway - see Alexander Nevsky (Sergei Eisenstein's film) - Mongol Conquest - Ditto
Key Question for me is what monotheistic religion would Russia eventually adopt, Western Christianity, Orthodox Christianity or Islam ? - depends on which faith would be the strongest and most attractive and when this would happen.
Also would this happen wholesale or would different principalities adopt different faiths? and would a dominant principality impose its new faith on the others?
In terms of Western Crusaders - this happened anyway - see Alexander Nevsky (Sergei Eisenstein's film) - Mongol Conquest - Ditto
Key Question for me is what monotheistic religion would Russia eventually adopt, Western Christianity, Orthodox Christianity or Islam ? - depends on which faith would be the strongest and most attractive and when this would happen.
Also would this happen wholesale or would different principalities adopt different faiths? and would a dominant principality impose its new faith on the others?
Teutonic Knights were on the wrong side of Lithuania from the Russian principalities and could not subdue even Lithuania. Brothers of the Sword were too few for pretty much anything beyond the border wars and even taking Novgorod would be unrealistic for them.
Anyway, none of them or even both of them (after unification) could go deep into the Central Russia and staying there would be a pure fantasy.
In CA it started with the Muslim conquest but never mind. Idea is not too practical because, AFAIK, the Muslims were not supposed to enslave the fellow Muslims and this would damage one of the big sectors of the Horde’s economy.
Christian “Scandinavians” had been quite busy fighting each other and, anyway, not capable of any noticeable conquest of the Russian territory prior to the Time of Troubles and GA. An idea that religion would have a serious effect on the military capacity is, I assume, based upon the example of the Prussian tribes, which is not applicable both geographically and because these tribes were on a seriously different level of development.
Vodka was invented well after the crusades. First Russian-made vodka is dated by 1430 by which time it was already produced in Poland and elsewhere.
The Tatars, and not only them, had been drinking both before and after conversion: a convenient interpretation was forbidding only grape-based alcohol.
Aqua Vitae, FYI, was Polish vodka, not Russian. 😜
Look while I wanted to contest the first point (A large Pagan entities will definitely rub Europeans the wrong way just like the Lithuanians), and my second possible scenario is more about Russians gradually becoming Muslims due to Islamic Golden age and acculturation (not everything past Khurasan was due to Conquest, many converted peacefully through trade).
The third is obviously a joke scenario, complete with Polish Vodka other than Sobieski.
“Europeans” as whom? Geographically, Lithania, Russian territories and everything else west of the Ural Mountains is “Europe”. If “Europe” means “Christian” then its medieval borders are even trickier depending upon the events in the Iberian Peninsula and the Balkans.
If we skip these nuances, most of the Catholic Europe would not give a damn by virtue of being too far and having its own problems. Which leaves the immediate neighbors. Example of Lithuania is not very good because it was actually Lithuanians who were “rubbing” their neighbors by launching the looting raids on their territories. So, out of those who could realistically get involved we have:
- Sweden - no adequate resources all the way to the early XVII and even then not enough for a large scale conquest.
- “Livonia” - Arch Bishopric of Riga, Brothers of the Sword, etc. the same resources problem.
- Lithuania - pagan and blocking Poland.
- Hungary - irrelevant beyond Galicia region.
Then goes the technical possibility. Until the late XVI there was no serious military advantage on the “western side” in the terms of equipment or organization, which made situation quite different from, say, Lithuania, predominantly light looting cavalry with little or no armor protection. Notice that at Grunwald the “Lithuanian Lithuanian” troops fled at the Order’s attack but the regiments from the vassal Russian territories stood their ground.
Possible but would have little to do with the Islamic Golden Age during which contacts with the Muslim world were minimal. More realistic gradual conversion after the Horde’s conversion into Islam but slave trade issue may discourage the Horde from forcing the conversion.
Actually, “Sobieski” is not very good, not to mention that it is too new for the discussion. The most famous, historically, was Danzig Goldwasser. 😂
Wouldn't this be the Rus not the Russians? I don't know the exact date that the state of Russia was founded, I think during the time of Ivan the III or maybe it was still just the grand duchy of Moscow, still the Kyvian Rus' was an ancestral state to the later russian state and it was the Kyvian rus that were polytheistic, not the later russian state.
Anyways the one thing I am not sure on is how centralized or decentralized Kyvian Rus was. I have seen accounts of it being one realm others that it was multiple loosely aligned realms. This would impact things in the question here. A single state remaining pagan is different from 1 state in an alliance or multiple states in an alliance.
I do imagine that There would be some influence from Christianity, primarily Orthodox, regardless if it kept to its own religious traditions. The reason is obvious, they had a number of trade connections with the Romans of Constantinople. How this influence takes shape, could come in a number of forms. common things I see would be jewelry of various deities, similar to how the Norse would create the Thor's hammer, you might see things like symbols of the slavic deities as Jewelry. Other artistic things I could see them adopting Icons for their temples. Maybe there is some influence on how temples are designed.
Anyways the one thing I am not sure on is how centralized or decentralized Kyvian Rus was. I have seen accounts of it being one realm others that it was multiple loosely aligned realms. This would impact things in the question here. A single state remaining pagan is different from 1 state in an alliance or multiple states in an alliance.
I do imagine that There would be some influence from Christianity, primarily Orthodox, regardless if it kept to its own religious traditions. The reason is obvious, they had a number of trade connections with the Romans of Constantinople. How this influence takes shape, could come in a number of forms. common things I see would be jewelry of various deities, similar to how the Norse would create the Thor's hammer, you might see things like symbols of the slavic deities as Jewelry. Other artistic things I could see them adopting Icons for their temples. Maybe there is some influence on how temples are designed.
About him, do we know why he was campaigning in Bulgaria? If he intended to get away from the christian faction in Kiev it'd make more sense to also move away from other centers of christianity
I checked a bit from wiki (not the best source, ik) and it seems the christianization of the Rus was very "tryggvarsonian" with Vladimir destroying pagan idols during the baptism of Kiev, while Dobrynya and Putyata converted Novgorod "by fire" and "by the sword"
Maybe a less drastic approach, like in Sweden before Inge the elder, could help the survival of pagan practices in more isolated areas
Maybe a less drastic approach, like in Sweden before Inge the elder, could help the survival of pagan practices in more isolated areas
prani
Banned
What do we know about Slavic Paganism as was practiced in the lands of the Rus? Did it have a complex Philosophy or metaphysis to compete with Islam and Christianity? Did it have aspects to it which the political leaders can use to unify the population that they ruled politically? Did it have mythology like the Persians or Hindus which the Pagan Eastern Slavs can draw upon for legitimacy?
I mean Vladimir might have destroyed Idols and there might have been efforts by the Authorities to destroy Paganism and promote Orthodox Christianity, I mean Hindus survived to the present day, despite having to compete, socially, politically, religiously with the Christians and Muslims for the past 800 years and in those years there had been large scale persecution, albeit sporadic with highs and lows, and destruction of Hindu places of worship, Hinduism much like Judaism went from centering itself around the places of worship, that is the temples in Hinduism and THE TEMPLE in Judaism to becoming a religion based off scripture. This all the while having a rigid but at the same time flexible caste system which instead of getting destroyed was adopted and adapted by the Christians and Muslims in south Asia.
My point is Russia could survive as a Pagan society if the Pagan religion provides it's people with answers to life's problem better than you know the other religions, has rituals that are simple yet ornate enough to evoke mystical aspects, can be manipulated by the political elites to serve their ends. I mean if the Paganism of the Rus, is sophisticated enough that they adapt as well as adopt the church organization aspect of the orthodox faith then i think it can survive and thrive.
I mean Vladimir might have destroyed Idols and there might have been efforts by the Authorities to destroy Paganism and promote Orthodox Christianity, I mean Hindus survived to the present day, despite having to compete, socially, politically, religiously with the Christians and Muslims for the past 800 years and in those years there had been large scale persecution, albeit sporadic with highs and lows, and destruction of Hindu places of worship, Hinduism much like Judaism went from centering itself around the places of worship, that is the temples in Hinduism and THE TEMPLE in Judaism to becoming a religion based off scripture. This all the while having a rigid but at the same time flexible caste system which instead of getting destroyed was adopted and adapted by the Christians and Muslims in south Asia.
My point is Russia could survive as a Pagan society if the Pagan religion provides it's people with answers to life's problem better than you know the other religions, has rituals that are simple yet ornate enough to evoke mystical aspects, can be manipulated by the political elites to serve their ends. I mean if the Paganism of the Rus, is sophisticated enough that they adapt as well as adopt the church organization aspect of the orthodox faith then i think it can survive and thrive.
If Rus Slavic paganism is systematized and state-sponsored into something durable enough to keep state patronage and keep the state/monarchs from swinging to support of Christianity or Islam, it may have developed some techniques, institutions, and rituals that other remaining pagans in Europe dealing with Christian challenges may find inspirational. So Lithuanians, Old Prussians, Finns, may imitate some of this package.
Heck, the Rus would need to harden themselves early enough against the Christian tide and temptation that even Swedish and Norwegian pagans and pagan rulers might be in position to emulate their techniques if they wish.
@alexmilman has shown that the Rus are basically far enough east to be effectively 'Crusader-proof'. Crusaders going long distances will be going after the Holy Land, Asia Minor and Egypt before ever thinking of Novgorod or Kiev. But might a stubbornly pagan Sweden become Crusade-meat and Lebensbraum for Christianized Danes and Germans?
Heck, the Rus would need to harden themselves early enough against the Christian tide and temptation that even Swedish and Norwegian pagans and pagan rulers might be in position to emulate their techniques if they wish.
@alexmilman has shown that the Rus are basically far enough east to be effectively 'Crusader-proof'. Crusaders going long distances will be going after the Holy Land, Asia Minor and Egypt before ever thinking of Novgorod or Kiev. But might a stubbornly pagan Sweden become Crusade-meat and Lebensbraum for Christianized Danes and Germans?
But he could not move into a vacuum. The area has to be able to support him and his band. And, unlike Kiev, he would be firmly in charge. Anyway, this theory has its pros and contras as any other theory.