WI; RR Vulture engine cancelled much earlier e.g. 1938/39

[merlin]

Impact on RR - will more powerful Merlins be available earlier? Would the Griffon be produced earlier?

Impact on aircraft:
- Will the Lancaster make its maiden flight a year earlier i.e. Jan '40
- Vickers Warwick is cancelled.
- Hawker Tornado second prototype has the Bristol Centaurus engine - after changes to its cockpit screen the AM orders it (the Typhon becomes still born).

Any other consequences?

 

[tomo pauk]

More powerful Merlins earlier - probably not. Earlier Griffon - possibly yes, and if so it will be an useful upgrade to the Spitfire fleet. Or perhaps as a retrofit to the Mustang.
Manchester might be powered by Sabre or Centaurus, and then morph into the Lancaster.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

You could see a Griffon powered Manchester which could conceivably be developed into a Griffon powered Lancaster.

You could see the Westland Whirlwind reworked for the Bristol Taurus as well.

 

[fastmongrel]

No or much later Merlin 60 series engine as that used a Vulture compressor as the first stage.

Stanley Hooker goes to work for Bristol and sorts out the superchargers for Bristol Hercules leading to 2 stage high altitude versions

 

[merlin]

Manchester might be powered by Sabre or Centaurus, and then morph into the Lancaster.

Surprised you think that, the Halifax had already gone for four engines with any Vulture problems, IMHO more likely to go for an earlier Merlin option. after problems OTL with the Vulture in the Warwick they tried the Centaurus but supplies limited so tried the Double-Wasp..
Seems likely the the Spitfire II would enter service in at least July rather than August 1940.

 

[tomo pauk]

Surprised you think that, the Halifax had already gone for four engines with any Vulture problems, IMHO more likely to go for an earlier Merlin option. after problems OTL with the Vulture in the Warwick they tried the Centaurus but supplies limited so tried the Double-Wasp..
Seems likely the the Spitfire II would enter service in at least July rather than August 1940.

Avro was pushing for a 2-engined heavy bomber with Manchester - unlike Handley Page - with the obvious blessing of the Air Ministry. 2-engined heavy bombers being cheaper to make and easier to train pilots & crews (yes, that was a faulty math, at the end the 4-engined heavies trump 2-engined heavies big time).
That meant using the most powerful engine in the pipeline, their choice being the Vulture. Without the Vulture in the picture, they can look at Napier and Bristol, for Sabre and Centaurus respectively.

As for the Spitfires in 1940 - the Spitfire III is my pick, if enough of Merlin 20s can be spared.

 

[merlin]

Handley-Page had misgivings about the Vulture and its power output, and suggested two prototypes - one with two Hercules and the other with two Vultures. The AM didn't have H-P's misgivings and wanted both with Vultures.
However, "after detail design was well advanced and construction had begun, the future of the Vulture engine gave rise to concern. It was proving more difficult to develop than at first seemed likely, with continued problems. There also had always been a substantial body of opinion within the Air Staff that favoured the use of four engines in the P.13/36 design, but this had been overruled in favour of using two big engines - mainly because a smaller aircraft would result and maintenance problems would be eased. Difficulties with the Vulture and the lack of alternative engines in the same power class at a similar stage of development caused the Air Ministry to reconsider the engine layout of the HP56. Handley Page was asked to redesign the bomber with four Merlins."

Source RAF BOMBER COMMAND and its aircraft 1936-1940 By J Goulding & P Moyes.

 

[The Wooksta!]

Manchester was borderline underpowered with Vultures, it would be even more so with Griffons.

Whilst the Air Staff were happy enough to switch to four engines for the Halifax, they were less so with Manchester. Some officials did the best they could to deny Avro the materials to build a prototype of what would become Lancaster. Ironic given the need for them later on.

 

[merlin]

No, it wasn't 'officials' at the 'Ministry, it was Patrick Hennessey at MAP!
"As early as 1937 before the HP56 was modified with four engines, Roy Chadwick at Avro was giving thought to fitting four Hercules onto the Manchester. sir Wilfred Freeman (AMDP) also mentioned such a scheme and the first drawings were produced in 1939. Thus when the Manchester 's future came into question Avro had proposals ready to convert it into a four-engine aircraft.
Initially Avro's project received no enthusiasm from MAP who thought that the Manchester was incapable of further development ...... The main argument to proceed was that because the Manchester's jigs and tooling could be used it was the best way to produce the greater number of aircraft in a given time, Freeman supported Avro throughout."
Avro faced obstruction from Hennessey at MAP in getting the materials required - but Avro achieved it - thank goodness.

Source BSP p.106 Tony Butler.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Perhaps avoid the ramp head issues that delayed the Merlin's from maturing into a reliable type and have it developing more power earlier

The perhaps an earlier appreciation of a return to the continent (Munich goes bad and or AGNA failing?) with an earlier increase in orders results in the development of aircraft becoming more streamlined earlier.

This advancing of the Merlin might see less reason to halt development of the Griffon and with the Vulture development ending earlier the Napier Sabre might have an earlier look in?