WI: Roman Provinces of Caledonia and Hibernia

[Diego]

Let's say that for some reason the Romans really commited themselves in conquering Caledonia and Hibernia between the 2nd and 4th centuries AD. How would the British Isles develop after that? Would that reduce the number of legions in the islands in the long term?

If the Roman Empire still becomes christian and still falls in the 5th or 6th century will Britain become another latin country? Will it be unified or will it be divided in several kingdoms?

 

[Sertorius126]

They would both get abandoned in the fifth century and things would pretty much go the same way, except Ireland might have its own King Arthur in subsequent legend.

 

[Escape Zeppelin]

They would both get abandoned in the fifth century and things would pretty much go the same way, except Ireland might have its own King Arthur in subsequent legend.

Would Ireland get abandoned though? As the whole island would likely be under Roman control it would surely be much easier to hold than Britain. They'd certainly have to deal with raids from Britain but I'm not sure of the feasibility of a full invasion to dislodge local Roman authority. With the almost total lack of urban centers before Roman conquest it seems likely to me that Ireland would be a heavily Romanized province, especially after several hundred years.

It doesn't seem terribly unlikely to me that Ireland might become an impoverished and isolated province what eventually developed their own successor government to Roman authority.

 

[Sertorius126]

Would Ireland get abandoned though? As the whole island would likely be under Roman control it would surely be much easier to hold than Britain. They'd certainly have to deal with raids from Britain but I'm not sure of the feasibility of a full invasion to dislodge local Roman authority. With the almost total lack of urban centers before Roman conquest it seems likely to me that Ireland would be a heavily Romanized province, especially after several hundred years.

It doesn't seem terribly unlikely to me that Ireland might become an impoverished and isolated province what eventually developed their own successor government to Roman authority.

The Roman Empire, since it had no deeply rooted cultural unity, was held together by its army. No army, no empire. No Emperor during the fifth century would waste troops stationing a far off island with little to offer and difficult to mantain. Once the army’s gone, it’d be like Roman rule was never there at all save for some ruins, just like in Britain.

 

[Diego]

The Roman Empire, since it had no deeply rooted cultural unity, was held together by its army. No army, no empire. No Emperor during the fifth century would waste troops stationing a far off island with little to offer and difficult to mantain. Once the army’s gone, it’d be like Roman rule was never there at all save for some ruins, just like in Britain.

Wouldn't be possible to a Romano-Caledonians and a Romano-Hibernian identity appear after some time of occupation? even if not, wouldn't it be possible that the centuries of occupation make the Caledonians and Hibernians weak enough to not be a menace to the Romano-Britons? Because without the Irish and Pictish raids the Britons could focus on defending against the Saxonic invasion.

 

[piratedude]

I don't think the romans could ever have held Caledonia in any meaningful/long-term way. They certainly tried to, but it always fell apart not long after the army left. The natives there really had little incentive to want to be part of the empire. It didn't help that they weren't urbanized at all, and for the romans building a city or two up there was more expensive than it was worth.

However, do think they could manage Ireland, or at least an eastern portion of it. They can build profitable cities there and hold it with one legion, i think. They just move the legion they stationed in Deva to Ireland, leaving two in Britain (one in the north and obe in the south).

Of course everything kinda falls apart when rome leaves the isles, because unless something funky is happening its a question of when not if. But it means thata portion of Ireland is more stable, and its the portion that would've raided Britain in OTL (ie: defyd and the west country), which means Britain has one less thing to worry about.

It also butterflies st.patrick, or at least how things played out for him

 

[Flavius Iulius Nepos]

Roman conquest of Caledonia and Hibernia almost certainly mean a decrease of the presence of Roman military units on the island once the province is pacified. A small garrison would probably remain there but not enough soldiers to support people like Magnus Maximus, Constantinus III and if the conquest is completed during the first centuries of the empire even Carausius and maybe Constantinus would lack the military strength for their campaigns. Lots of butterflies here, as we would avoid some of the most devastating civil wars of the IV/V century originating from the mutiny of the army in Britain, which mean a different fall of the empire or even no fall at all.

 

[Sertorius126]

Roman conquest of Caledonia and Hibernia almost certainly mean a decrease of the presence of Roman military units on the island once the province is pacified. A small garrison would probably remain there but not enough soldiers to support people like Magnus Maximus, Constantinus III and if the conquest is completed during the first centuries of the empire even Carausius and maybe Constantinus would lack the military strength for their campaigns. Lots of butterflies here, as we would avoid some of the most devastating civil wars of the IV/V century originating from the mutiny of the army in Britain, which mean a different fall of the empire or even no fall at all.

It’d be impossible to completely pacify Hibernia, it was too far off and the cultural divide was way too wide for that. A permanent garrison would need to be stationed there. The same goes for Caledonia. Not even the two provinces in Britain, after hundred of years, were ever really integrated within the empire. It’s no case that there never were senators born in Britain. Natives in Hibernia would revolt again, and again, and again, as the British tribes did IOTL, and the Saxons and Franks pirates, whom Carausius was originally sent to fight, would still be very much a threat. A consistent garrison would still be present in Britain, and another in Hibernia. Conquering Hibernia wouldn’t make any wannabe usurper up there weaker, if anything, it’d make them stronger, what with both Britain’s and Hibernia’s legions at his disposal.