WI: Richard III survives the battle of Bosworth Field?

I have been studying the Tudors in history recently, and I wondered what kind of effect it would have on the early years of Henry VII reign if Richard III was able to survive and flee from the Battle of Bosworth Field. Henry VII had two Yorkist Rebellions in the first three years of his reign, Lovell's rebellion, and the Warbeck rebellion. With the ex-king around, Yorkist rebellions might enjoy more popular support, and Richard III might be able to overthrow Henry VII, who was very reliant on former Yorkists in his Government.
Does anyone else have thoughts on the matter?
 
Why does Richard flee considering he was inches away from killing the upstart?

Perhaps in this alternate battle Richard flees because he doesn't get that close? Battles are chaotic, and the easiest way to change the outcome is to assume the positions changed. So if he finds himself cornered instead, he might flee.
 
What Henry VII? As long as Richard is alive and free he is still king. He regroups probably in the north and prepares to fight Henry somewhere of his choosing.
 
Why does Richard flee considering he was inches away from killing the upstart?
The battle goes slightly differently, maybe Richard remains mounted, and retreat uphill, to rally his forces? Anyway, how he survives isn't too important, it's what happens next which is important.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
Perhaps in this alternate battle Richard flees because he doesn't get that close? Battles are chaotic, and the easiest way to change the outcome is to assume the positions changed. So if he finds himself cornered instead, he might flee.

Very true, it would be interesting to see how things play out in that scenario
 
If R3 doesn't die, he's still king. If erstwhile H7 doesn't hie himself out of England, he'll be the mystery missing guy from the tower, not the bastards of E4.
 
If R3 doesn't die, he's still king. If erstwhile H7 doesn't hie himself out of England, he'll be the mystery missing guy from the tower, not the bastards of E4.

If Richard's army loses and he then ends up a fugitive, which I think is the scenario intended from the initial post, then he's still King as much as Henry VI was during Edward IV's first reign - although unlike Henry he has his sanity, so attempts at reclaiming his throne could be successful. His sister Margaret would shelter him while he regrouped, and if he can convince someone to ally with him through marriage his odds improve even more. (Perkin Warbeck managed to marry a kinswoman of the Scottish king, and he was probably a fake. Richard in this scenario is also likely to be ineligible for a first rate princess - he's a risk - but a cousin or niece of a higher royal line than the Stewarts is possible.)

Edit for hitting reply too soon.
 
My assumption here is that Richard is clearly defeated in battle but manages to escape; Henry VI at the Battle of Towton is an example of this sort of thing happening. Maybe the Stanleys don't sit on the sidelines for as long, and intervene on the Tudor side earlier, maybe Richard gets a nonfatal wound from a lucky arrow and his side panics, whatever. However it happens, Henry is still in position to have himself crowned in London, and would immediately do so (being a canny politician in his own right).

In addition to Burgundy and Scotland, he may also be able to raise support in Ireland (which OTL fielded armies for both Lambert Simnel and Perkin Warbeck; they can likely do something similar for an actual king). On the other side, Henry is probably much less willing to cast off his French alliance ITTL (OTL he drifted towards a Habsburg anti-French alliance as quickly as was seemly), as a Burgundian-supported Richard is a much more serious threat than Warbeck ever was.
 
My assumption here is that Richard is clearly defeated in battle but manages to escape; Henry VI at the Battle of Towton is an example of this sort of thing happening. Maybe the Stanleys don't sit on the sidelines for as long, and intervene on the Tudor side earlier, maybe Richard gets a nonfatal wound from a lucky arrow and his side panics, whatever. However it happens, Henry is still in position to have himself crowned in London, and would immediately do so (being a canny politician in his own right).

Not that likely. If Richard III is not dead the English nobility will rally to him as they were sick of the never ending civil war and the surest way to put an end to it is to uphold the legitimacy of the incumbent monarch...much in the same way as the nobles rallied to Henry VII against the pretenders against him. Only here Henry Tudor remains the pretender as Richard III survives his Bosworth bout of recklessness.

In short Henry Tudor has no early years of his reign.
 
Richard had significant numbers who did not participate at Bosworth, especially in the North. If he retreats there he can assemble a significant force; meanwhile the French mercenaries that made up a huge chunk of the Tudor army may or may not remain. At the same time some weaker royal loyalists might switch and what remaining Lancastrians that have gone to ground will rally to the Tudor. But it's worth noting that many Yorkists thought that simply waiting for the northern forces to arrive was the smarter move, as York would then have overwhelming numbers. But he felt he had enough, and really it took some significantly bad luck to prove him wrong; first the normally able Norfolk fights like a novice, then Northumberland keeps 1/3 of the army as spectators for ~ reasons, and finally the Stanleys make their choice and pick the perfect moment.

So another significant factor is Northumberland: if he was a traitor as some maintain, that lessens Richard's immediate pool, but if as he maintained he was hemmed off by geography, he can withdraw in good order and almost immediately give York a viable core for his army around which to gather his northern forces.

Another factor is that if the Yorkists can publicize the fact that the Tudor force at Bosworth was largely foreign, that kind of thing tends to go over very UN-well in England. It would be interesting to see Richard actually use propaganda rather than react to it as in OTL. Some of this depends on how he loses and how much of his army survives. His charge was apparently so impressive that even the Tudor side called it valiant; if he pulls that off but then enough men get in the way that he's forced to withdraw, he adds to his reputation as a warrior-King which was great currency at the time, and reaffirms his connection with Edward.
 
Not that likely. If Richard III is not dead the English nobility will rally to him as they were sick of the never ending civil war and the surest way to put an end to it is to uphold the legitimacy of the incumbent monarch...much in the same way as the nobles rallied to Henry VII against the pretenders against him. Only here Henry Tudor remains the pretender as Richard III survives his Bosworth bout of recklessness.

In short Henry Tudor has no early years of his reign.

Exhaustion with the never ending wars might help Richard, true. Post-Bosworth there was a lot of gymnastics,mbut Tit. Reg. passed with overwhelming support, and though it's true Richard was never loved in London as his brother had been, he had significant support from the nobility in general, and as you say some of that was just the fact that he was a proven administrator and commander.
 
What number Richard have vs Henry

At Bosworth?

Richard had around 10,000. His largest contingent was under Northumberland, about 4,000 strong including the bulk of his cavalry; this wing never saw action. Whether they were slowed up, cut off or out of sight by the lay of the land or Northumberland betrayed Richard is unknown; most think the former, as he maintained his innocence and was imprisoned following the battle, but no one really knows.

Henry had about 5,000, of whom ~ 1500-2000 were French mercenaries and the bulk of the remainder were Welsh.

The Stanleys combined had 5-6,000 divided into two forces, and were about as on the fence as it is possible to be. They officially declared loyalty to the king, but were infamous as windcocks; think Walder Frey.
 
Last edited:
Not that likely. If Richard III is not dead the English nobility will rally to him as they were sick of the never ending civil war and the surest way to put an end to it is to uphold the legitimacy of the incumbent monarch...much in the same way as the nobles rallied to Henry VII against the pretenders against him. Only here Henry Tudor remains the pretender as Richard III survives his Bosworth bout of recklessness.

In short Henry Tudor has no early years of his reign.
If Richard has just lost a battle and is fleeing with his life and maybe a handful of loyalists, he is the pretender, by default. He can't raise another army immediately after Bosworth; his support base was never that strong, and most of it was there, and is now either dead (Howard) or imprisoned/turned their cloak (Percy, the Stanleys), and their armies with them. Once Henry has London (and he will take London ASAP after Bosworth) and has himself crowned king, then he is the king, as far as his supporters and most neutrals are concerned. Most of England was never particularly loyal to Richard (who had only reigned for a couple of years, after usurping the crown from his nephews, and was seen as too much of a northerner by most of Southern England), and will have no reason to rally to a king in exile. He might still be able to pull it off (Edward IV did, twice), but it's hardly the most likely outcome.
 
If Richard has just lost a battle and is fleeing with his life and maybe a handful of loyalists, he is the pretender, by default. He can't raise another army immediately after Bosworth; his support base was never that strong, and most of it was there, and is now either dead (Howard) or imprisoned/turned their cloak (Percy, the Stanleys), and their armies with them. Once Henry has London (and he will take London ASAP after Bosworth) and has himself crowned king, then he is the king, as far as his supporters and most neutrals are concerned. Most of England was never particularly loyal to Richard (who had only reigned for a couple of years, after usurping the crown from his nephews, and was seen as too much of a northerner by most of Southern England), and will have no reason to rally to a king in exile. He might still be able to pull it off (Edward IV did, twice), but it's hardly the most likely outcome.

Can't agree, really. Percy likely surrendered because Richard was killed; he'd been untouched and was in a position to retreat, but wha' the point with no king? So hat's 4000 right there, unbloodied. And I strongly disagree with the notion that most of his support was there; he's been second guessed specifically because he fought without waiting for most of his northern forces, particularly Yorkshiremen. The City of York itself long lamented the fact that they'd not been there on the day. And there's Ireland, long a Yorkist stronghold and Burgundy would likely match French contributions if needed.

Without a reigning king in the field and after 2 years of winnowing, the Yorks still raised almost 10,000 for Stoke, remember.

Nor can I agree that he's a pretender; he's been crowned, and ruled for 2 years. He may very well become one if his support falls away and he's forced into exile, but that's not the default result of losing one battle. It may happen, it may not. I will agree that the South largely saw him as a Northerner, and as such didn't hold any particular affection for him, but they knew Henry Tudor even less, and his marching in backed by French mercenaries and Welshmen isn't going to be particularly popular if there's an English king out there. How London will react is anyone's guess.

I again reiterate that the immediate ramifications hinge so much on Percy. If he betrayed Richard, than I agree Richard at best retreats to the North to build an army, or possibly Ireland or Burgundy and Henry likely takes London. But if, as he maintained, it was just that he was impeded, Northumberland's 4000 immediately form the core of an army the northerners can build on, and I'm not sure Henry can safely march on London with the kind of army he's leading. And this is all supposing that Richard's van and center are completely wiped out; 5000 of the non-Percy contingent survived as is; supposing it went better enough for Richard to withdraw could also mean he leaves with 2-3000 to link up with Percy's 4000 and battle is resumed fairly soon, with northern reinforcements on the way.
 
Can't agree, really. Percy likely surrendered because Richard was killed; he'd been untouched and was in a position to retreat, but wha' the point with no king? So hat's 4000 right there, unbloodied. And I strongly disagree with the notion that most of his support was there; he's been second guessed specifically because he fought without waiting for most of his northern forces, particularly Yorkshiremen. The City of York itself long lamented the fact that they'd not been there on the day. And there's Ireland, long a Yorkist stronghold and Burgundy would likely match French contributions if needed.

Without a reigning king in the field and after 2 years of winnowing, the Yorks still raised almost 10,000 for Stoke, remember.
If the Yorkists lose, Percy's army isn't going anywhere; Henry's priorities will be to secure the king, and he certainly has the troops to defeat Percy before he can meet up with reinforcements. Most likely at this point, if Percy has Richard, he turns him over to Henry in exchange for being forgiven for opposing him. If he doesn't have Richard, he still makes whatever peace he can; he's not in a good position to continue resistance, and he's just seen Richard's main army be routed. The Tudors will absolutely pursue Percy's forces if they continue to resist; their commanders are certainly capable enough for that, and if Percy finds himself outnumbered and surrounded, he has little choice.

Certainly Burgundy, Ireland, etc. can raise additional troops if given time, but Richard needs them now if he's to avoid becoming a hunted fugitive.

Nor can I agree that he's a pretender; he's been crowned, and ruled for 2 years. He may very well become one if his support falls away and he's forced into exile, but that's not the default result of losing one battle. It may happen, it may not. I will agree that the South largely saw him as a Northerner, and as such didn't hold any particular affection for him, but they knew Henry Tudor even less, and his marching in backed by French mercenaries and Welshmen isn't going to be particularly popular if there's an English king out there. How London will react is anyone's guess.

I again reiterate that the immediate ramifications hinge so much on Percy. If he betrayed Richard, than I agree Richard at best retreats to the North to build an army, or possibly Ireland or Burgundy and Henry likely takes London. But if, as he maintained, it was just that he was impeded, Northumberland's 4000 immediately form the core of an army the northerners can build on, and I'm not sure Henry can safely march on London with the kind of army he's leading. And this is all supposing that Richard's van and center are completely wiped out; 5000 of the non-Percy contingent survived as is; supposing it went better enough for Richard to withdraw could also mean he leaves with 2-3000 to link up with Percy's 4000 and battle is resumed fairly soon, with northern reinforcements on the way.
Defeated armies in the Wars of the Roses rarely retreated in good order; if Richard is truly defeated (which I take to be the POD), he's not reforming his army anytime soon. OTL, quite a few escaped due to Richard's death-or-glory charge leaving them behind; if he loses but still survives, the POD essentially requires him not to launch said charge, in which case his army is going to have a much more difficult time disengaging safely. If nothing else, Henry's surviving army is (by assumption, given that he won ITTL) significantly larger than what's left of Richard's, and with a significant victory under his wing, is likely to attract more supporters who see the way the wind is shifting, while Richard's army will be severely demoralized. Henry already has the most significant nobles either on his side (the Stanleys) or dead/defeated (Percy, Howard); Richard needs time to build an army to replace the one he mostly lost. At best, he escapes to the north with Percy and whatever troops he can salvage, but doing so essentially concedes the more populous south, and automatically confers significant legitimacy to Henry.

As for the question of whether he's a pretender or not, that's mostly semantics, but if he's been badly defeated and driven away from London, he's certainly not the uncontested symbol of legitimacy.
 
London was largely pro Yorkist throughout the period.
If Richard III is still alive the chances of the pretender Henry Tudor getting into London are very slim and even if he does controlling the capital not likely. Think of the readaption of Henry VI or Warwick's rebellion, government needs the king to function.
I think 18 months top before Henry Tudor is kicked out or dies heroically (where's the classic rolls eyes emoticon when you need it) in battle.
Richard would have made a good king if his governance of the North is a blueprint. The huge issue is succession of the throne after he dies. The usual suspects trotted out Richard de la Pole etc are pretty diluted royals.
 
Top