WI: Richard, Coeur de Lion Dies on Crusade? Effects on John's rule?

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Kellan Sullivan

As the title says. Say Richard I dies on Crusade, before he gets captured by the duke of Austria and John has to raise taxes to pay the ransom.

How does this affect John's reign? From what I can make out, most popular culture makes it that John is an absolute tyrant while the absent Richard is little short of a hero/saint. Now, I do agree that John had his flaws, but Richard really wasn't all that, since he basically saw England as his limitless credit card.

I'm guessing the 'martyr king' Richard dying on Crusade will still be regarded as a "lost" opportunity for a golden age by some, but might it improve how John is seen by history? Sure, Johnny's still likely to make some of his blunders from OTL, but could he somehow be less vilified than OTL?
 

Ivan Lupo

Assuming the nobles back John over Arthur of Brittany, who might not even be 5 years old by that point, that extra money could be used to shore up the defences of his French possessions. Ideally, John won't splurge on himself and his supporters, but it would be in character for him.

However, if he is counceled to use this surplus wisely, one thing John did show genuine interest in was the justice system and he may spend on further reforms.
 

Kellan Sullivan

Ivan Lupo said:
Assuming the nobles back John over Arthur of Brittany, who might not even be 5 years old by that point
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Is there any reason they would back Arthur? I mean, a kid isn't gonna be able to lead an army. Yes, he's likely to be set up as a sort of anti-king, but it's unlikely that a 5yo is going to garner much support (beyond from John's opposition - which I could imagine would be quite considerable should he screw up as badly as he did OTL, without OTL's circumstances to excuse it)
 

Kellan Sullivan

Another question, would Richard's earlier death mean John gets an annulment from Isabella of Gloucester and remarries earlier? Perhaps not to Isabelle d'Angoulême?
 

Ivan Lupo

There seemed to have been all kinds of problems with John's marriage to Isabella of Gloucester, as they were well within the allowable degrees or consanguinity and we're given papal dispensation to be allowed to marry, but apparently weren't allowed to consummate their marriage. Needless to say, John absolutely needed to get that marriage annulled when he became in OTL and it would be the same story here. However, Isabella of Angoulême would have barely been 5 years old herself had John risen to the crown in this scenario, so he definitely marries a different bride here as soon as he can to secure his succession. He would be in his early 20s here and about as eligible a bachelor as there is in Europe to boot.

Constance of Aragon would have been a logical, expedient choice for a bride too. She'd be about 13 or so years younger than John at the time of marriage, being born in 1179 and it always made sense to shore up alliances along Aquitaine's southern borders, or make an alliance with another southern dynasty. In OTL, Constance was married away by her brother in 1197 to the King of Hungary.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constance_of_Aragon
 

Kellan Sullivan

Ivan Lupo said:
Constance of Aragon would have been a logical, expedient choice for a bride too. She'd be about 13 or so years younger than John at the time of marriage, being born in 1179 and it always made sense to shore up alliances along Aquitaine's southern borders, or make an alliance with another southern dynasty. In OTL, Constance was married away by her brother in 1197 to the King of Hungary.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constance_of_Aragon
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Noted.

Would there be any sense/problem in him marrying Richard's widow? Berengaria's only a year older than Johnny. True, no one can know (and it might not even be the case here) that her brother will have no issue, and a Plantagenet Navarre could be interesting, no?
 

Ivan Lupo

Kellan Sullivan said:
Noted.

Would there be any sense/problem in him marrying Richard's widow? Berengaria's only a year older than Johnny. True, no one can know (and it might not even be the case here) that her brother will have no issue, and a Plantagenet Navarre could be interesting, no?
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I think it would have just been easier to marry Constance. No complications about her being his own brother's widow, no problems with consanguinity, plus Aragon and Barcelona were themselves trying to maintain their own hegemony in the Occitan regions of Southern France, so an alliance with Aragon would make a lot of sense in securing Aquitaine for the duration of this matrimony. The French crown could think twice before deciding to tackle a unified Occitan/Aquitanian/Aragonese/Catalan alliance, and on top of that, John's brother-in-law is the King of Castile.
 

Ivan Lupo

Ivan Lupo said:
I think it would have just been easier to marry Constance. No complications about her being his own brother's widow, no problems with consanguinity, plus Aragon and Barcelona were themselves trying to maintain their own hegemony in the Occitan regions of Southern France, so an alliance with Aragon would make a lot of sense in securing Aquitaine for the duration of this matrimony. The French crown could think twice before deciding to tackle a unified Occitan/Aquitanian/Aragonese/Catalan alliance, and on top of that, John's brother-in-law is the King of Castile.
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So I did end up discovering that John and Constance share a common ancestor, Duke William IX of Aquitaine. He was John's maternal great-grandfather and Constance's paternal great-great-grandfather. I think they're at the 7th level of consanguinity according to Wikipedia's consanguinity article, so I imagine this wouldn't garner much of a notice from the church. I also have to imagine Eleanor of Aquitaine would be fully aware of this, so this marriage just further strengthens her family's claim on Aquitaine.
 

Kaze

Banned
mrmandias said:
You'd think that not having to pay the heavy ransom would make a difference.
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It would. One of the flaws of John's reign was paying off his father's and older brother's debts, the heavy ransom was just another debt that was added to the tally. It would give John the ability to leave his son a positive in his treasury - the only way he did this in IRL caused John to sign the Magna Carta, but the Carta might be delayed.
 

Ivan Lupo

kasumigenx said:
This could be a double marriage, we could have Eleanor of Brittany married to Peter II.
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Eventually, Eleanor is still a little girl when all this would go down. Then again, Peter would be a youngster himself. Alfonso II would still be around, but I suppose a betrothal matching his son with John's niece could prove useful.
 

Kellan Sullivan

BlueFlowwer said:
Constance might be more valuable than Berengaria. So go for her.
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Ivan Lupo said:
I think it would have just been easier to marry Constance. No complications about her being his own brother's widow, no problems with consanguinity, plus Aragon and Barcelona were themselves trying to maintain their own hegemony in the Occitan regions of Southern France, so an alliance with Aragon would make a lot of sense in securing Aquitaine for the duration of this matrimony. The French crown could think twice before deciding to tackle a unified Occitan/Aquitanian/Aragonese/Catalan alliance, and on top of that, John's brother-in-law is the King of Castile.
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Fair enough
 

Kellan Sullivan

Kaze said:
It would. One of the flaws of John's reign was paying off his father's and older brother's debts, the heavy ransom was just another debt that was added to the tally. It would give John the ability to leave his son a positive in his treasury - the only way he did this in IRL caused John to sign the Magna Carta, but the Carta might be delayed.
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Delayed? Modified? Or completely butterflied? Johnny won't be a political genius, so he'll probably STILL blunder somewhat, but he wasn't completely inept. Of Henry II's brood he was the only one consistently loyal to his father. John was likewise one of the ones (Geoffrey was the other) Henry sent to sort Richard out after Dick refused to give up Aquitaine on the Young King's death. Richard had to endow John with more than a few lands (including the County of Mortain) first in order to "pack" parliament* (although he seized Mortain back when John pulled his OTL stunt) then as a reward for John's services in defeating the French in 1195. Oh, and John apparently only became regent because the guy(s) Richard left in charge were screwing up and Aliénor of Aquitaine told Richard to allow John into England to sort the mess out (not sure where Johnny was before that if Dick wouldn't allow him into England).

So we've got a guy who is loyal (to a point), a competent administrator (although compared with his brothers, I guess that's not sayig much) and a fair soldier. (He beat the French (1195) and the Scots (1209) although he still lost to the French.
 

Kellan Sullivan

John was in talks (during his rebellion) to marry Philippe Auguste's sister (think it was Alys). Otherwise, him marrying Constance of Aragon could have an interesting effect on the Hohenstaufens (eventually)
 

Kellan Sullivan

isabella said:
Yes, the sister in question was Alys
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Would such a marriage go through though? I mean, she's been engaged to Richard, repudiated by Richard on the grounds of her having had an affair with his dad, and now John is willing to marry her? I'm not even sure how the papacy would issue a dispensation for that.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
Kellan Sullivan said:
Delayed? Modified? Or completely butterflied? Johnny won't be a political genius, so he'll probably STILL blunder somewhat, but he wasn't completely inept. Of Henry II's brood he was the only one consistently loyal to his father. John was likewise one of the ones (Geoffrey was the other) Henry sent to sort Richard out after Dick refused to give up Aquitaine on the Young King's death. Richard had to endow John with more than a few lands (including the County of Mortain) first in order to "pack" parliament* (although he seized Mortain back when John pulled his OTL stunt) then as a reward for John's services in defeating the French in 1195. Oh, and John apparently only became regent because the guy(s) Richard left in charge were screwing up and Aliénor of Aquitaine told Richard to allow John into England to sort the mess out (not sure where Johnny was before that if Dick wouldn't allow him into England).

So we've got a guy who is loyal (to a point), a competent administrator (although compared with his brothers, I guess that's not sayig much) and a fair soldier. (He beat the French (1195) and the Scots (1209) although he still lost to the French.
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This! If Richard dies before the huge debt in the ransom, then surely John's not going to have to do all the shit he had to in otl to pay off the ransom and the debts from before? Which means he's not going to have so many pissed off barons.
 

Kellan Sullivan

VVD0D95 said:
This! If Richard dies before the huge debt in the ransom, then surely John's not going to have to do all the shit he had to in otl to pay off the ransom and the debts from before? Which means he's not going to have so many pissed off barons.
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And without said ransom, the Hohenstaufens aren't going to be able to afford to claim Naples/Sicily AFAIK.
Wars with France will still cost. But if John wins (or at least, doesn't lose too badly) then he should be able to get by without it, no?
 
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