WI: RAF and USAAF on the Eastern Front

[Bill Cameron]

Gents,

An odd idea sparked by an off-hand comment in another thread, but what if Stalin actually allowed a militarily significant Western military presence on the Eastern Front?

In the OTL and despite whining constantly for more help, Stalin turned down all Western offers of troops. Western military presence was minimal and that by the Soviet's own choice. Among a very few examples, a single RAF squadron spent all of four months in '41 helping defend Murmansk and USAAF bombers were graciously allowed to land for refueling in the Ukraine after seven whole missions against Ploesti, but what if large Western air forces were routinely based in Russia and engaged in extensive combat there?

I'm not interested in why Stalin would change his mind, it's Stalin we're talking about so let's just assume he has a whim one day while signing death warrants(1) and invites the RAF/USAAF in. Let's not worry about how the aircraft in question can be pried away from "Bomber" Harris and Carl Spaatz either. I also don't think Western ground forces would be sent due to doctrinal and other issues so let's stick aircraft.

So, what sort of missions can the RAF/USAAF undertake on the Eastern Front? What sort of opposition will the Luftwaffe provide? What can the RAF/USAAF plausibly be achieved?

Hope to hear lots from all the air boffins!


Bill

1 - A several years ago before Putin put the archives back under seal, researchers determined that Stalin personally signed somewhere north of 40,000 death warrants. Not rubber stamped mind you, but signed with pen, ink, and presumably a "happy face" dotting the "i" in "Stalin". You gotta love a guy who loves his work....

 

[Astrodragon]

Since the bomber barons are still true believers in the religion of strategic bombing, I'd expect that sort of target.

Waht would now be in range are the Ploesti oilfield, and later on some of the big synthetic and refining plants built east to avoid UK based bombers.

If they stuck to that (rather than fixating on Berlin) it could shorten the war quite a bit.
You may need to get rid of Lindemann as well, though....

 

[The Red]

Technically, British pilots flew Hurricanes against the Germans on the eastern front in the first few months of Barbarossa. So you could say the RAF had a minor presence for a while in OTL.

 

[Bill Cameron]

Technically, British pilots flew Hurricanes against the Germans on the eastern front in the first few months of Barbarossa. So you could say the RAF had a minor presence for a while in OTL.

The Red,

Actually, and not technically, I mentioned that already when I wrote:

... a single RAF squadron spent all of four months in '41 helping defend Murmansk...

Do you have any thoughts about what a significant RAF/USAAF presence might accomplish?


Bill

 

[The Red]

The Red,

Actually, and not technically, I mentioned that already when I wrote:

... a single RAF squadron spent all of four months in '41 helping defend Murmansk...

Do you have any thoughts about what a significant RAF/USAAF presence might accomplish?


Bill

I think it's implausible Stalin would allow them in in the first place. Although in OTL, during the depserate days of 1941 he asked for large numbers of US troops on the Eastern front who could "completely autonomous of Stavka". It would seem the best chance for the RAF/USAAF to play a significant role would be more catastrophes on the front by which point their effectiveness relies on what else happens in this scenario. In large numbers they would be an invaluable asset to the Red Army early on, maybe giving them some parity in the air in the early years of the war, however as the Red Air Force gets better and finally establishes air superiority on it's own as it did in OTL around 1943/44. These forces will gradually lose their significance.

 

[Jukra]

Do you have any thoughts about what a significant RAF/USAAF presence might accomplish?

RAF bombers would be able to burn Helsinki and some other Finnish cities to ground during Winter of 1944, vastly damaging Finnish morale and perhaps knocking Finland out of the war. In OTL, ADD could not do this.

RAF maritime strike aircraft operating in 1942-1944 would be able to significantly interdict German and Finnish Baltic trade, causing severe economic hardships. Just a number of sorties by mining aircraft would stress German and Finnish minesweeping organizations to a limit. Even operations from Leningrad pocket might be able to isolate Southern Finnish ports, thus causing very hard economic hardship to Finland and complicating German supply lines for their forces far north.

 

[Jukra]

Do you have any thoughts about what a significant RAF/USAAF presence might accomplish?

RAF maritime strike aircraft could seriously challenge German and Romanian use of Black Sea as supply route and thus have very much effect upon Southern Front. In OTL, the failure of numerically superior Soviet Black Sea Fleet and Naval Aviation to do this was almost incomprehensible.

 

[The Red]

RAF bombers would be able to burn Helsinki and some other Finnish cities to ground during Winter of 1944, vastly damaging Finnish morale and perhaps knocking Finland out of the war. In OTL, ADD could not do this.

Would they do this though? Finnish military units sure but Churchill was apprehensive about declaring war in the first place.

 

[Blair152]

Maybe not as weird as you may think. There was evidence of trains going into Auschwitz before World War II ended. There were those who wanted to
bomb the railroads into Auschwitz and the Allies did nothing so as not to upset Stalin.

 

[The Red]

Maybe not as weird as you may think. There was evidence of trains going into Auschwitz before World War II ended. There were those who wanted to
bomb the railroads into Auschwitz and the Allies did nothing so as not to upset Stalin.

Actually the major concern was that as precision bombing wasn't anywhere near as easy as it is today that bombs had just as much chance of hitting the camps as hitting the railway lines.

 

[Blair152]

That's right. Today we could put a cruise missile right through an open door,
or for those of you remember the first Star Wars movie, and Operation Desert Storm, a bomb right down a chimney. The evidence was clear and I don't mean to sound like a conspiracy theorist here, but the concern in 1943 and '44, was to keep Stalin happy and to screw Poland.

 

[The Red]

The evidence was clear and I don't mean to sound like a conspiracy theorist here, but the concern in 1943 and '44, was to keep Stalin happy and to screw Poland.

The evidence was clear but as I said, there was as much probability they'd slaughter the inmates and leave the railways unscathed. That was why the operation never went ahead. And western appeasement of Stalin was indeed unforgivable but after all the Soviet Unions efforts were decisive in the common victory any attempts to accommodate Stalin were seen as a necessary evil.

 

[Bill Cameron]

Although in OTL, during the depserate days of 1941 he asked for large numbers of US troops on the Eastern front who could "completely autonomous of Stavka".

The Red,

In the desperate days of 1941 Stalin asked for US troops?

Huh?

You mean during the 21 days in December of 1941 when the US and Germany were at war, Stalin asked for US troops?

Sure, whatever.


Bill

 

[The Red]

The Red,

In the desperate days of 1941 Stalin asked for US troops?

Huh?

You mean during the 21 days in December of 1941 when the US and Germany were at war, Stalin asked for US troops?

Sure, whatever.


Bill

Suprisingly no, the request was made during the first Moscow conference which took place between September-October 1941. Probably due to the US having an active role in the conference Stalin must have presumed, and rightly so, that the US were going to enter the war at some point in the near future. But it remains mysterious.

 

[Desmond Hume]

I'm interested in people's thoughts on what would happen to UK and especially US servicemen who served in the Soviet Union once the Cold War begins. Would they be dragged in front of HUAC on suspicion that they'd been "compromised" by living and fighting side-by-side with the Commies?

What would the servicemen themselves say about the Soviet Union once they got home? Some might talk about purges and so forth, significantly adding to Western knowledge of Stalin's brutality [1]; but others would say that the Soviet people themselves were perfectly good sorts, patriotic people who wanted to defend their country and families just like Westerners.


[1] I know Stalin would do everything possible to keep foreigners from finding out about purges and his other crimes, but something was bound to slip out. That probably had a lot to do with why he didn't accept Western troops in OTL, after all.

 

[Bill Cameron]

Suprisingly no, the request was made during the first Moscow conference which took place between September-October 1941.

The Red,

So Stalin asked for US troops when A) the US wasn't at war and B) the US had no troops available. Actually, in a "Stalinesque" sense, that's a canny long term political move.

But it remains mysterious.

Hardly. He asked then knowing full well that the answer would be "no" so he could throw that "refusal" back in the WAllies faces at a later date.


BIll

 

[Bill Cameron]

I'm interested in people's thoughts on what would happen to UK and especially US servicemen who served in the Soviet Union once the Cold War begins. Would they be dragged in front of HUAC on suspicion that they'd been "compromised" by living and fighting side-by-side with the Commies?

Desmond,

I was hoping these questions would come up. I don't think HUAC or any of the other groups of "red hunting" boobs would be much of a problem for the vast majority of personnel who served on the Eastern Front. For the few service members who went "native" however - if that's even going to possible - there could be trouble.

What would the servicemen themselves say about the Soviet Union once they got home? Some might talk about purges and so forth, significantly adding to Western knowledge of Stalin's brutality [1]; but others would say that the Soviet people themselves were perfectly good sorts, patriotic people who wanted to defend their country and families just like Westerners.

I don't think they're going to meet any Russians outside of the officials and military units they're working with. It isn't going to be like East Anglia with flyboys popping down to the village for pints at the pub. The Soviets are going to keep the Western airbases as hermetically sealed as possible. They'll provide liquor and whores, if only for the espionage potential, but those "comforts" will be doled out in bars and knocking shops run by the NKVD and others. No ordinary Russian is going to get within the same time zone as the Western airmen if the Soviets can help it.

It will be that paranoia and level of control which will color the opinions of most of the Westerners fighting on the Eastern Front. Because they won't be socializing with normal people and because they'll be hemmed in by 24/7 by Soviet "security", most of them are going to leave Russia with a very poor opinion of the place.


Bill

 

[The Red]

Hardly. He asked then knowing full well that the answer would be "no" so he could throw that "refusal" back in the WAllies faces at a later date.

That would make the most sense. If anyone could think in the long term when staring catastrophe in the face it would be Joe.