WI: Qosqo rises to power two centuries sooner.

By some weird occurrence, Qosqo is founded two centuries earlier and therefore begins its rampage earlier too. Let's assume it is able to become the main power in the Andes as IRL... what next? What happens with an early Tawantinsuyu? Would the Qosqo even be able to expand the way they did? Would the Chumi still be as huge as an influence upon them?
 
So, basically Saksaywaman or something appearing in the 900's?

Exactly, although maybe the technology for the great structures might not be available, as lots of tech was borrowed from the Chimu as I remember. But with a centralized empire stretching quite far (if not as far as IRL) then the advancements would probably be made quicker.
 
Anything? I feel like this could be some crazy TL with the Spanish not conquering Perú...
Don´t think so.
If you want to prevent the Spanish (and any other European) conquest, you`d either need to boost South American technologies from Stone Age to Gunpowder Age, or you`d need to remove the structural reasons why European kingdoms felt the need to conquer and colonise so much land so far away. If you don`t achieve that, you could preserve a relatively strong indigenous state for a while, in an alliance with some EUropean state against another, but ultimately, it would get eaten up; there are plenty of OTL examples of that.
 

Huehuecoyotl

Monthly Donor
Don´t think so.
If you want to prevent the Spanish (and any other European) conquest, you`d either need to boost South American technologies from Stone Age to Gunpowder Age, or you`d need to remove the structural reasons why European kingdoms felt the need to conquer and colonise so much land so far away. If you don`t achieve that, you could preserve a relatively strong indigenous state for a while, in an alliance with some EUropean state against another, but ultimately, it would get eaten up; there are plenty of OTL examples of that.

I'm not convinced that this is a given. The historical conquests of Mexico and Peru succeeded through luck just as much as technology or talent. In a world where the Andean (or Mesoamerican) landscapes were even only superficially different, anything is possible.
 
I'm not convinced that this is a given. The historical conquests of Mexico and Peru succeeded through disease just as much as technology or talent. In a world where the Andean (or Mesoamerican) landscapes were even only superficially different, anything is possible.

Fixed it for you.
 
Don´t think so.
If you want to prevent the Spanish (and any other European) conquest, you`d either need to boost South American technologies from Stone Age to Gunpowder Age, or you`d need to remove the structural reasons why European kingdoms felt the need to conquer and colonise so much land so far away. If you don`t achieve that, you could preserve a relatively strong indigenous state for a while, in an alliance with some EUropean state against another, but ultimately, it would get eaten up; there are plenty of OTL examples of that.

Not even that. The Spanish waltzed in after the Inca had undergone a civil war, lost both the Emperor and the heir apparent, and suffered from disease throughout that entire time period. Not to mention the ballsy actions taken by Pizarro right before the Battle of Cajamarca(calling that a battle is generous). Take away any of those circumstances and chances are the Spanish never make much headway with the Andeans.
 
Inka last for longer, but...

I'd considered writing a timeline on the Inka along somewhat different premises, my research so far netted the following.

At the time of the Spanish conquest the Inka were looking at expansion into the Silver River basin (OTL northern Argentina, Paraguay, and Uruguay), central and western Colombia, eastern Peru/western Brazil via the Amazon River, and the southernmost reaches of Chile below the Bio-Bio river. With an extra two centuries you just avoided the Inka civil war - Spain may not be able to take the Empire on that basis alone. Inka metalsmiths were working copper in addition to gold and had a trade route with the Aztecs among others via Jalisco, they would receive word about the pale-faced demons looting the gold and killing the people. With any sort of preparation they will be a formidable force, even with 90% population reduction the Inka of OTL would number approximately 1.5 - 2 million people, certainly enough for a functional state, and with population expansion over two centuries perhaps 4 million or more after said reduction. Inka technology had certain areas of advantage as well, their road system was extraordinary as was their ability to make textiles (1000 stich/in^2 would not be seen again until the 19th century of so). They also had hematite, known to the Andes as a pigment since 100 AD or so, thus it would be possible for them to eventually produce steel under the right circumstances.

Given two centuries head start, I think the Inka would expand in almost all directions with rivers and accessible valleys, perhaps even reaching the Atlantic in Uruguay/Argentina/Brazil and at least Manaus/Lugar de Rio Negro in the Amazon. The Musica of central Colombia will probably come under Inka control and perhaps Lake Maracaibo or Darien will see an Inka settlement. Trade with locals in those areas will eventually spread parts of Inka culture and may give rise to satellite states or proto-Inka satellites. The road system will expand accordingly with river trade routes providing supplementation. Cities deep in the jungle (which have been noted as about a dozen from one civilization in Brazil, each as large as 25,000, by archeologists recently not counting whatever they found on the Peruvian-Brazilian border a few years ago). would be able to avoid Spanish or other European notice fairly easily. And with superior numbers the Inka would be able to launch counterattacks and destroy or take over isolated settlements. Steel would be among their most valuable commodities, horses would become a status symbol and food source.

Overall I see three possible scenarios:

1. Inka last a few decades longer with more ruins intact as the Spaniards do not return until the 1560s or 1570s after the plagues decimate the population. A wave of apocalyptic warfare ensues among the Inka and weakens them internally, allowing Cuzco and the mountainous areas to fall with gold production beginning about half a century later than OTL. The Amazon areas are less developed and devolve into city-states as Potosi remains important for the mercury since that was necessary to refine the gold ore - only two locations in the world were known to have it in the 16th century, the other was in Austria. Phillip II will grow his empire accordingly and Europe might be speaking a lot more Spanish by 1640. An isolated city or few cities may hold out well into the 18th century by escaping notice and staying out of sight, if they hold out long enough they might be able to make their own terms about joining one of the new governments or even make a play for independence themselves.

2. As above but the Amazon infrastructure is more developed and the Inka slowly begin to rebuild their numbers. Lost explorers are interrogated at length, the mountains slowly see more Inka influence, and a cult grows among the Inka for their eventual return. Slowly the Inka retake frontier settlements before launching an all-out assault and retaking Cuzco at some point in the early-mid 1600s. Spanish control of Peru, Bolivia, Chile, and Ecuador is lost but they retain Paraguay, easternmost Bolivia, Argentina, Uruguay, Colombia, and Central America does not end. Eventually an uneasy peace is made after Inka governors realize that the Spanish will keep coming and that these 'Yoo-rou-peh-ohns' can be played off of one another. Embassies are sent to England, France, Netherlands, Portugal, and Austria with mixed success. Eventually the Inka come into their own but never as a first rate power, they slowly industrialize and survive into the modern day as a native state somewhat better off than their OTL counterparts.

3. A devastated Inka Empire reorganizes and repels the Spanish. They begin to take back parts those frontier settlements of their empire lost to the Spanish after repopulating for a generation or two. Only later are Englishmen and Dutch traders allowed in but they trade gold for technology, eventually permitting an Inka Empire controlling most of South America and parts of Central America to emerge over time. Southern Chile remains an independent Mapuche state but large parts of Patagonia remain undeveloped for many years, eventually Europeans settle here as they will in eastern Brazil. Central and Southern Argentina become a sort of South American version of Texas but stay within the Empire as a self-governing province with major internal autonomy but no foreign relations of their own and a common currency (think a big version of Hong Kong of OTL). The Silver River valley and everything within 100 miles or so of the river itself remains Inka though. Ironically stevia, native to Paraguay, becomes a major trade item much earlier than OTL. Standard of living is higher and the Inka are a second-tier power by all standards with tourists marveling at intact and well-preserved stone cities.
 

Huehuecoyotl

Monthly Donor
Fixed it for you.

No I really do mean luck, apart from disease both Cortes and Pizarro caught some extraordinarily lucky breaks at various times through the conquests of Peru and Mexico. Like EMT says a few posts above this basically.

That isn't to say that disease wasn't a significant factor, I'm just saying that the presence of European diseases doesn't inherently doom the natives in every scenario.

Qosqo? Don't you mean Cusco? :confused:

That's how it is in the standard Runa Simi romanization I believe.
 
There is a theory that Túpac Yupanqui sent an expedition to Polynesia, which was launched during his reign (around the 1470s or so) and returned with trade goods from Eastern Island and beyond, in Polynesia. With a 200 year headstart, other expeditions, with better ships, may have arrived to Cipango and even China?

Just imagine the possibilities. Even if it is a single expedition with a couple of ships, that should be more than enought to jumpstart the Inca into the Iron Age, with samples of swords, bows and arrows. And even it they don't bring horses with tme (let's say that the horses die on their way back), they will know about their existance, and possible ways to counter them. Also, they would bring an alphabet, writing and paper technology.

If these elements arrive to Qosqo let's say... by 1480, the Spanish may not even attemp to conquer the Inca, even with diseases. And if they do, their casualty rates will be huge. Even if the iron weapons and tactics are not fully implemented yet. Basically a Guns of the Tawantinsuya 2.0 but instead of a elite gunpowder corpse, with a regular Iron age army.
 
There is a theory that Túpac Yupanqui sent an expedition to Polynesia, which was launched during his reign (around the 1470s or so) and returned with trade goods from Eastern Island and beyond, in Polynesia. With a 200 year headstart, other expeditions, with better ships, may have arrived to Cipango and even China?

Just imagine the possibilities. Even if it is a single expedition with a couple of ships, that should be more than enought to jumpstart the Inca into the Iron Age, with samples of swords, bows and arrows. And even it they don't bring horses with tme (let's say that the horses die on their way back), they will know about their existance, and possible ways to counter them. Also, they would bring an alphabet, writing and paper technology.

If these elements arrive to Qosqo let's say... by 1480, the Spanish may not even attemp to conquer the Inca, even with diseases. And if they do, their casualty rates will be huge. Even if the iron weapons and tactics are not fully implemented yet. Basically a Guns of the Tawantinsuya 2.0 but instead of a elite gunpowder corpse, with a regular Iron age army.

I feel like Polynesia was just a hopeful dream, but with 200 years I think it would be a confirmed thing. Pigs and stuff could be brought from the islands leading to plagues and more food diversity (which was already pretty big in the Andes)
 
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