WI, Prussia doesn't exist ?

[Molobo]

What would be consequances if Prussia never existed as a state-being merged with Poland rather then becoming a vassal or taken over by Polish king Sobieski with French and Swedish help.
How would German states develop without its influence ? Would Austria dominate ? How would Europe look without Prussia ?
Would France dominate Europe without Prussian influence and would we have World Wars ? Could German states still unite in a militaristic aggresive country or would they change in more peacefull way ? What would become of Poland ?

 

[Nicole]

When does this happen? I suppose a more thourough Teutonic Knights defeat results in Poland wiping out the Teutonic State entirely (Rather than leaving it Ducal Prussia) would work...
Well, the Hohenzollerns are still around in Brandenberg... However, Prussia and it being outside of the HRE gave it an advantage, more manpower, as well as prestige (The Royal Title eventually gained). Brandenburg probably ends up at the level of Bavaria, a powerful German state, but nothing as dominating as Prussia became.

 

[Molobo]

When does this happen?

I see four possibilites :
In 1410-Polish-Lithuanian alliance defeats Teutonic Knights and destroys them
1466-at the treaty of Thorn concluding the revolt by cities held by the Knights and supported by Poland
1525-Instead of becoming a vassal state of Poland Prussia becomes part of it
1674-Jan III Sobieski reaches a armstruce with Ottomans and with Swedish and French help conquers Prussia.

 

[Civilizer]

Doesnt anyone think its ironic that Prussia itself, the nation that united Germany, is now almost completely out of Germany?

 

[Wendell]

Doesnt anyone think its ironic that Prussia itself, the nation that united Germany, is now almost completely out of Germany?

I do, but that wouldn't have been my decision. Can't do anything about that now.

 

[Steffen]

I could see Saxony becoming the powerful leading state:

It´s fairly rich and densely populated, has the elbe as an important waterway, ressources,
the duke is one of the original prince-electors, if the reformation still happens as OTL they have the prestige of the heartland of the reformation.
Although they are close to bohemia, they are seperated by a mountain ridge (erzgebirge) so an invasion from that area is not so simple.
Also, they are not neighboured to the french which helps becoming a power, one can think.
The country is not so fractured as neighbouring thuringian states (the puny principalities of Saxe-whatever-and-half a village) giving the a bit of room for expansion.

And if they take the commercial interests (Leipzig is an important fair) to heart, one could even imagine they start a "Zollverein" sooner.

 

[fhaessig]

The first thinbg that comes to mind is that the European wars from the Asutrian sucessions, at least, on are unrecignisable. This has huge consequences, and may well abort the french and american revolutions. Butterfles make it impossible to predict further.

 

[Jason]

It's almost impossible to predict this one-but could be fascinating one to play with.

If we are talking about Prussia, rather than Brandenburg, then whoever gets it would become powerful but I think it's Frederick the Great and his father who really made Prussia-Brandenburg into a power. I think it is one of those few times that the 'great man' theory works. Without a Fred the Great, creating a powerful German state, could we end up without any German state as a power? Germany ends up still being domianted by the HRE or France, depending on how things are going, possibly with Denmark and Sweden contuining to having largish holdings in the north of Germany?

 

[LordKalvan]

It's almost impossible to predict this one-but could be fascinating one to play with.

If we are talking about Prussia, rather than Brandenburg, then whoever gets it would become powerful but I think it's Frederick the Great and his father who really made Prussia-Brandenburg into a power. I think it is one of those few times that the 'great man' theory works. Without a Fred the Great, creating a powerful German state, could we end up without any German state as a power? Germany ends up still being domianted by the HRE or France, depending on how things are going, possibly with Denmark and Sweden contuining to having largish holdings in the north of Germany?

Without forgetting AH on the south, and this new, bigger Poland on the east.
If the POD is early enough, you could have the polish intervening in the 30 years war, and confronting the Swedish in the North.
All the bets are off, and the history of TTL would be quite different from OTL.
I wonder if there might not be a strategic alliance between poland and UK (or, alternatively, between Denmark and UK), since there is no Prussia.
My guess is that the unification of Germany is butterflied away, unless it is carried out by AH (but it would be hard for a catholic king to unify germany)