WI: Protestant Hapsburgs

[Peppe]

I don't know if this is too much of a stretch that it becomes ASB but Ok.

What if the Hapbsurg Dynasty (or at least its Imperial/Austrian Branch) becomes protestant? Lets say that unlike OTL, where theyremained staunchly catholic, either due to a new big figth with the Pope or some other reason, the Austrian Branch of the Hapbsurg Family (which was started by Charles V's younger brother after he decided trying to rule both Spain and the HRE was impossible) becomes completely and irrevocably protestant.

What would happen? In special if said conversion happens either in the generation of Ferdinand I (Charles' brother) or in his son's generation (and not on the possibly easier conversion fo Matthias and he having children).

Do they fare better than in OTL? Maybe even managing to make the HRE more united under them? Do they lose the Hapsburg Jaw (since I don't think the Spanish Branch would be fond of the idea of marrying protestants) or the smaller pool of relatives makes the inbreeding even worse on both sides (which I think is unlikely, now that they are protestants they would need to do some great backpedaling to gain some stability, and maybe marry other HRE lines to strenghten themselves)? Does the HRE become even more Protestant (and maybe Protestantism fares better in other regions)? Or their disconnection to the Spanish and the Papacy makes their fall even harsher?

Also, as a bonus, what would happen if BOTH Hapsburg branches become protestant?

 

[AltoRegnant]

Spain probably doesn't blow its whole empire dealing with their cousin's wrs so that's something.

 

[JErosion]

The only way i could see the Hapsburg pulling of a protestant branch would be for there to be a third branch of the family. The best spot for this happening would be under Charles V, he would need to either have second son (or Maybe John of Austria be older)that lives and is raised in the Netherlands with his father, with the understanding that to properly rule the Low-countries they would need two things a protestant ruler and a unified state to insert all those counties and duchies into. The Princes would likely not allow the Emperor to declare a Kingdom(although if it was as a Protestant Kingdom... nah still wouldn't happen). and an Archduchy is out, because Austria is already one and Archduchies are like the Highlander there can be only one. Maybe call it the Grand Duchy of Lotharingia?

 

[SavoyTruffle]

Far likelier for the Habsburgs to embrace the Reformation if they don't inherit Spain for starters.

 

[Drex]

That has a pretty difficult timing. It could be done with two or maybe more PODs. I think the main one could be a failure of the sack of Rome, given that until that moment pope Clement VII had opposed Caesar's ambitions over Italy rather violently. After the sack and the Imperial victory in the War of the League of Cognac the pope found himself hopelessly inside Charles' grip. We could have the sack fail (lack of supplies, troops do not mutiny or something on the lines), and maybe have the Imperial army waste enough time that the Italian states can gather a large army with French aid and kick them out of Lazio. Clement VII could fully support France and the Italian states from that part on. From that moment you either need France to win the war or for it to become a stalemate. Charles would be mad at the pope, but I doubt he supports Luther who by this time had created quite a few problems in Germany already and the Diet of Worms had already happened condemning him. A secondary (rather primary) POD could be that Luther is more open to dialogue and accepting some of the Catholic Church's points, enough for him not to become public enemy nº1 in Charles' empire, maybe even befriending the emperor and assisting him during his religious duel after the break with the papacy after the alt-League of Cognac. Charles would likely be a catholic his whole life, but maybe one of his sons could accept Luther's more-relaxed-than-OTL's thesis, maybe OTL's Ferdinand I or Maximilian II. Even if he somehow manages to convince future Philip II of Spain to convert, alt-protestantism would not likely root in Spain, and we would see another wave of violence like that experimented when Charles arrived at Spain (the Castilian Comuneros or the Valencian Brotherhood). If he remains a catholic it's pretty much the same for some years on until the German branch becomes protestant. I'm unsure what path would the Spanish take, but defending Burgundy from either the French or Germans won't be an easy task. Another effect would be that if the Netherlands still form they would be inside the HRE, and this could butterfly away Anglicanism, as well as completely changing TTL's Italy.

After that I feel like writing an actual TL on that, but university's pressing me rn.

 

[piratedude]

The thing is any hapsburg branch that becomes protestant is going to be banned from becoming HREmperor. Theres just no getting around the fact that the emperor is crowned as such by the pope. If, somehow, the electors choose a protestant and won't budge from their support than they're only going to be king of Germany, all the other fiefs/titles that are held by virtue of being emperor will be withheld, and the HRE is legally dead

 

[Jan Olbracht]

The only way i could see the Hapsburg pulling of a protestant branch would be for there to be a third branch of the family. The best spot for this happening would be under Charles V, he would need to either have second son (or Maybe John of Austria be older)that lives and is raised in the Netherlands with his father, with the understanding that to properly rule the Low-countries they would need two things a protestant ruler and a unified state to insert all those counties and duchies into. The Princes would likely not allow the Emperor to declare a Kingdom(although if it was as a Protestant Kingdom... nah still wouldn't happen). and an Archduchy is out, because Austria is already one and Archduchies are like the Highlander there can be only one. Maybe call it the Grand Duchy of Lotharingia?

Why ruler of Netherlands needs to be Protestant???
For Protestant Habsburgs best way is to have Tirolean branch to survive (Sigismund of Tirol has a son). That branch would not rule HRE thus would not need to care much about Pope and Electors.

 

[kholieken]

Theres just no getting around the fact that the emperor is crowned as such by the pope.

Last Emperor crowned by Pope is 1530, yet it to survive until 1806. near three-hundred years. If Elector and Emperor declare it, and have military force to do it, then their Right and Property would be okay,.the Pope might declare an anti-Emperor and excommunicate whole of HRE, but its not certain that he will succeed.

 

[piratedude]

Last Emperor crowned by Pope is 1530

Im sorry but I'm pretty sure that all the emperors were crowned as such by the pope at least in the sense of him granting the titles even if he wasn't doing it physically in Rome.

.the Pope might declare an anti-Emperor

To my knowledge that has never happened. There have been interregnums were there were kings of Germany but the pope refused to make them emperor, but not a situation where there is one elected king of Germany claiming to be emperor while the Pope crowns someone else as emperor. Im pretty sure its because of a legal thing where the emperor has to be king of Germany first. If the electors choose a protestant king, and sticks with that dynasty (which remains protestant), then thats probably it for the emperorship. The only other solution would be to find through some legal means to crown the king of France HREmperor, given he's really the only other possible claimant to the title
Regardless the king of Germany is no longer legally the HREmperor no matter what he calls himself

 

[JErosion]

Why ruler of Netherlands needs to be Protestant???

It would create less tension between the ruler and the populace. Also having a protestant ruler, who ruled locally would have helped things considerably. These weren't enlightened times yet. The 30 years war had yet to happen. And granted the southern portion of the Netherlands were still Catholic. Charles V successor Phillip II, ruled from Spain, was SuperCatholic, gave no shits about Dutch, he used them as an ATM to fuel his wars against other Protestants, forbid them to trade with their Protestant neighbors because of those said wars and overall didn't know how to economy worked. His rule led to the Dutch independence war that lasted for 80plus years

 

[Galba Otho Vitelius]

Matthias and Rudolf were suspected of being crypto-Protestants so this is not ASB. They need to be actual Protestants and have heirs so the Styrian branch of the family doesn't become the main branch. You could also have Charles V strongly back Luther, but this probably has the effect of preventing the separation.

The play here would be to secularize the prince-bishoprics, and it would strengthen the national institutions of the German part of the Holy Roman Empire. If France goes Protestant as well, and the possibility of this is higher if Germany goes completely instead of possibly Protestant, you have no Counter-Reformation and a big Catholic screw on your hands. Especially as part of the impetus for the reforms pushed by the Council of Trent was imperial pressure.

 

[funnyhat]

The thing is any hapsburg branch that becomes protestant is going to be banned from becoming HREmperor. Theres just no getting around the fact that the emperor is crowned as such by the pope. If, somehow, the electors choose a protestant and won't budge from their support than they're only going to be king of Germany, all the other fiefs/titles that are held by virtue of being emperor will be withheld, and the HRE is legally dead

The Pope will protest but they will ignore him, and invent a new legal justification.

 

[GauchoBadger]

Protestantism, as a movement of reaction against the contemporaneous sort of Italian domination over German politics, had already made headway into Austria prior to the Counter-Reformation efforts of the later 16th and early 17th century. If Luther's teachings manage to convince not only the Austrian peasantry and bourgeoisie but also a bigger portion of the nobility (and/or if the benevolent neglect of the late 16th century Austrian Habsburgs towards Protestantism had continued), then it's likely that Austria, Hungary (which did have its own sizeable reformation IOTL), and Bohemia could officially convert sometime down the line. Bavaria could also be pressured into the Reformation.
This would leave basically all imperial territory north of the Alps in Protestant hands. Considering that the German Protestants were extremely hostile to the Pope in Rome and vice-versa, i don't really think the Protestant Habsburgs would want to keep the title of Holy Roman Emperor. It could instead be transferred to the Spanish Habsburgs (who had holdings in North Italy which was arguably HRE territory) or the French Bourbons while the Kingdom of Germany is reformed as a Protestant organization.

 

[alexmilman]

Spain probably doesn't blow its whole empire dealing with their cousin's wrs so that's something.

Well, for Spain the most important thing in that war was to maintain security of the troops passage to the Netherlands (armistice with the Dutch was expiring) which made Austrian Hapsburgs necessary. On a later stage of the 30YW there was, for all practical purposes, almost separate French-Spanish War. So they would be in a lousy shape anyway. Maybe somewhat less lousy.

Of course, it can be argued that in OTL without the Spanish help with the troops and money on the 1st stage of the war the Hapsburgs would lose Bohemia and, with the Palatinate being in the Protestant hands, marching the troops from Italy to the Netherlands would be more difficult. However, this consideration may not be important if the Austrian Hapsburgs are Protestants.b

There is a popular theory about maintaining the “Spanish Road” (see the map) but the last time the Spanish troops were permitted to march through Savoy was in 1620 and since the 1622 this route had been closed, leaving the less convenient way through the Switzerland. Securing the Rhine area for the Catholics still was important within that framework and after defeat of Frederick V Spain got control of Kurpfalz thus securing an alternative route.

However, if the Austrian Hapsburgs are Protestants the whole OTL schema goes down the tubes:
1. There is no triggering event - conflict between the Catholic Ferdinand and the predominantly Protestant Bohemian Estates.
2. There is no broader OTL conflict because the imperial power is not trying to infringe upon the framework established by Augsburg Treaty. In other words, there is no 30YW in any form and shape close to the OTL.
3. If religion-motivated war happens, the Catholic League is on a rebellious side supported by Spain. Spanish support by the troops is possible only if they manage to get Savoy on their side and, taking into an account the existing French-Savoy alliance, this probably means an earlier Spanish war with France.
4. Spain has very serious problem because Protestant Emperor should not be fond of the idea of its fighting against the Protestant Netherlands and definitely would not want the Catholic troops marching across the HRE. As a result, Austrian Hapsburgs may find themselves on the same side with France at least as far as control of the Grisons and Valtelline is involved. Spanish-Dutch war may end earlier and the Spanish-French war may become a completely independent affair.
5. “Hapsburg Encirclement” of France applies only to the Spanish-held territories because the Austrian Hapsburgs are either neutral or anti-Spanish. Which does not exclude a possibility of the later Franco-Imperial conflict over Lorraine and Alsace.
6. There are no Danish and Swedish interventions.
7. Absence of the 30YW means an absence of the huge human losses and general destruction in Germany.
8. Absence of the 30YW means a possibility of the earlier Austrian anti-Ottoman effort (providing Austrian Hapsburgs managed to get needed finances and bring the HRE princes on board).
9. Absence of the 30YW May delay the de facto independence (right to conduct independent foreign policy) that the German states got by the Peace of Westphalia.y

 

[piratedude]

The Pope will protest but they will ignore him, and invent a new legal justification.

They won't, because as gaucho above mentioned, the protestant camp that you'd need to make stronger than otl tends to have a nativist bent. They'd be perfectly fine with just a King of Germany, almost all the lands connected to the emperorship are catholic anyways and they wouldn't want them butting in.

 

[Anarch King of Dipsodes]

What if the Hapbsurg Dynasty (or at least its Imperial/Austrian Branch) becomes protestant?

Very difficult; the Imperial title was deeply entangled with the Church.

However. Some different things could push this way.

The inheritance of Spain by the Habsburgs might not happen; that tied the House to the most resolutely Catholic kingdom in Europe.

The Refomation might have gone further. OTL, the Reformation reached (to some degree) all Catholic Europe north of the Pyrenees and Alps. There were substantial numbers of Protestants in southern France, in Switzerland, in Hungary. There were even Protestants in Austria and neighboring Salzburg. (In the 1700s, the Prince-Archbishop discovered a community of about 20,000 Lutherans in a remote mountain valley; they were compelled to migrate to Prussia, where there was vacant land to settle.)

This last outcome is practically implied by the OP. What could drive that? One likely cause would be greater corruption in the Papacy and the Curia. The rot was at its worst at the end of 1400s, with the infamous Borgia Pope Alexander VI (1491-1503). His successors, Julius II (1503-1513) and Leo X (1513-1521) had their own problems, but neither was anywhere near as gross. (I ignore Pius III, Pope for one month in 1503.) Suppose that Alexander lived another five years, further cementing his family's control of the Papacy, and that his successor is the weakling puppet of Cesare, reigning for another 15 years. That would last to 1523, well into the Reformation. The anger which prompted Protestant rebellion would be hotter, and the Church's response weaker. Then (more bad luck) the next Pope (elected by reformers disgusted by the Borgias) has a stroke a few months after the election, leaving him seriously handicapped, but still alive.

With the Papacy thus weakened and literally paralyzed, the Church's response to the Reformation could be ineffective, leading complete Protestant conversion of Germany, including Habsburg Austria.

Another path to Protestant Habsburgs could be a third heir to Charles V who gets the Burgundian lands - that is, the Netherlands. This branch might go Protestant with their subjects. The hyper-Catholic Spanish would be excluded from Germany. The Protestant Habsburg prince would be a natural candidate for King of Bohemia if that country rebels against Catholic Habsburg rule. That would secure Protestant control of all four secular Electorates.

Or, under Protestant Austria, Bohemia might never rebel, thus sparing the country brutal reconquest and re-Catholicization.

The Archbishopric of Cologne nearly went Protestant in the late 1500s, when an incumbent converted and tried to make the realm follow. IIRC he was expelled with the help of Imperial and Spanish troops. A similar event in a more-Protestant TL could bring a fifth electorate.

Long-term - both Switzerland and the Netherlands would be more inclined to remain in a Protestant HRE.

 

[Benevolence]

I think we maybe underestimating to possibility of a balance of powers type scenario. For example secularising who gets them
- current occupants?
- the emperor
- heads of the imperial circles or electors?
- or the nearest estate

Isn't there likely to be conflict due to this? Wouldn't someone say another prince or elector; or say even the king of France be like, whoa let me take advantage of this, maybe I can rally the Catholics and take over. Imperial line wise anyway

 

[funnyhat]

Spain probably doesn't blow its whole empire dealing with their cousin's wrs so that's something.

I think they still would get involved - note that they involved themselves in the wars of religion in France also. In fact, they could interpret their cousin's conversion as an act of war.

 

[alexmilman]

I think they still would get involved - note that they involved themselves in the wars of religion in France also. In fact, they could interpret their cousin's conversion as an act of war.

In France they were involved mostly to prevent it from interfering on the Dutch side in an ongoing war: supporting the Catholic League was the best way to keep the civil war going and the royal power weak. Their direct military interference was minimal: the most famous episode was breaking blockade of Paris by Duke of Parma.

But I quite agree that most probably they would consider conversion of the Austrian Hapsburgs as a hostile act. Unless (which is unlikely) there is an agreement between two branches of the family guaranteeing the safe passage of the Spanish troops tgrough the HRE territory. In theory “family above religion” may work. Probability is another issue.

 

[Jürgen]

I think a good POD for this would be Philip II of Spain before he produced a heir that would mean that the Habsburg domains would be split among the sons of Ferdinand.

Maximilian would get Austria, Bohemia and Hungary

Ferdinand II would become king of Spain (and likely marry Charles second daughter Joanna)

Charles II is the interesting one, logical he would get the Netherlands and the county of Burgundy, but as this Charles I favored possession, I could see him insist it going to one of his son-in-laws, likely Maximilian. Instead he would get Further Austria (the Habsburg exclaves in Swabia and Tyrol), maybe they sweeten the inheritance by also giving him the County of Burgundy and maybe also Luxembourg. These areas was also Catholic strongholds and fit Charles II well.

Without Spain being a active player in Germany, the emperor may feel more safe in converting, the control over the Netherlands also give the emperor a greater tax, which make him less dependent on Spanish support. So a emperor without fearing the split with the Spanish branch, may simply see a conversion to Lutheranism as a way to stabilize Germany. He will likely push a general tolerance toward the princes who want to stay Catholic (Bavaria and the Swabian Habsburg primarily).