WI: President Bilbo deports 12 million African Americans to Liberia
- Thread starter rainsfall
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What about other separatists groups? The Moorish temple, the Ethiopian Hebew Society, and the committee for a 49th state? By the thirties there is even a proto-Nation of Islam under W.D Fahd. I agree repatriation would have to be voluntary, but a large outlet, for housing, and the development of businesses might help. Remember in 24, Willson's son in Law McAdoo advocated a disability, and African American homeland in Alaska.
None of these groups are all that big, and nowhere near all of the members are going to want to relocate. Liberia is at least vaguely a repatriation and a potential homeland moreso than Alaska. If you had a serious commitment to voluntary repatriation, I could see maybe a million repatriating at most, if you stretched the definition to include prisoners that you offered 5-10 years off their sentences if they voluntarily repatriated at the end of them.
You make effective points. The committee is the most vibrate of the Non Garvey groups, a Perot style alliance of the extreme right, lets deport minorities, and the left, the former slaves need their own territiry to reach their full potential.
rainsfall
Banned
The Soviet state forcibly deported 20 million ethnics before 1937, and the context is ethnic cleansing all the same.
rainsfall
Banned
OTOH, his influence is unlikely to last long after his death.
Hearst and Raskob's influence go a long way in the 1932 DNC...
LOL: Bilbo-Garvey 1936 for re-election!
"Ethnics" ?
Even if that number were accurate, the Soviets did not have to arrange oceanic transport; they could deport people by rail or even on foot. The Bilbo Administration does not have anywhere near enough ships to transport 12 million people to Africa, and he knows it. Any such "relocation plan" would be a fig leaf for rounding millions of people up, putting them on trains allegedly for seaports, but then taking them to extermination camps.
No thanks. I don't want to visit that America.
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rainsfall
Banned
Not all of the deported were ethnic minorities: a significant proportion were kulaks and assorted "class enemies" as well.
Absurdly enough, Bilbo blamed a "black-Jew-Italian" conspiracy for the Great Depression as a scheme to unemploy Southern whites. Foreign policy wise, he was a staunch isolationist and pro-Germany:
Where did these extra 5 million come from??? You still won’t provide a source besides a vague citation from a non-specialist book, and now you just inflated your figure by a whopping 25% and refusing to elaborate in response to my questions. Including anyone arrested by the Soviet state as a deported ethnic group is questionable in this conversation.
rainsfall
Banned
There is no extra 5 million. I have provided a source from a specialist book, and it's you who's deflating your figures.
20 million people were deported by the Soviet state before 1937(including ethnic cleansing of minorities as part of Russification of non-Russian territories) and a significant proportion of them were outright murdered. The number arrested by the Soviet state would have been definitely higher.
I am sorry this is still absurd, insulting and for all intents and purposes ASB and the OP is providing ZERO explanation for how this happens thus increasing the insult by implying that thevpopulation of the US is in general so racist as to allow this to happen against all the laws of the land.
And have you ever noticed that the only folks that insist on ASB meaning physically impossible are those that are oroposing something that is ASB?
To pull this off you would need to organize about the equivalent of the US WW2 participation.
1) you need to take over the country
2) you need to disband the Supreme court.
3) You need to have enough troops to surpress the non black population that is going to be up in arms over point 1 and 2
4). you need to ALSO suppress the non Black population that is going to be up in arms over expirt. Black Citezens.
5). You need to suppress the Entire black population as well as control them while be relocated in the US and then on the ships to Africa.
6). You Somehow have to get the force to do this (pts 3,4 and 5) out of the small percentage that agree without while somehow not accidentally arming or putting those that appose you into a position of power.
7). You have to do all of this in a country that is the most heavily armed covilian population in the history if the world (including said blacks and the Non blacks that are pissed over points 1 and 2)
8). You have to build an absolutely amazing naval transportation system while doing all the above. The ships dont exist to just do this.
9). You have to build a navy to protect these ships and see they get to where you want (other countries are not going yo be thrilled with this)
10). You need tro build a HUGE Army and its naval support forces to invade your destination country as it is not going to just let you dump 12 million people you dont like on them. And you are going to have to control it long enough to finish sending said 12 million. (all while doing allthe above simultaneously)
11). You are going to have to PAY for this. While your country resist you (see point 1-5) And while the rest if the world embargos the crap out of you. (if you are lucky, i mean you are trying to comit genocide while invading a country, this could result in a nasty war with “right minded countries”
12). And don't forget you have to all this for long enough to pull off this deportation. I would guess 10 years 2 to get control of the US and toss the constitution on a bon fire and then a couple to start the ball rolling and invade your destination and then 5-6 to transport these folks and probably a couple years moping up those you missed.
Meanwhile the Underground railroad is going to get started again and Canada is not. going to be happy. So you have to walk on a wire to not het the British Empire involved. And of course you are. going to lose a ton of you economy when Canada embargos your ass.
And then we come to the gorilla in the room. A HUGE chunk of the population of the US was combat vets. And an even bigger part was armed and back then a lot of those armed folks were. good at hunting and the use if guns. What is often overlooked in the US is a goid percentage of the population recalls that at least in part the reason for the laws protecting gun ownership is in case the government gets out. if control, And at the start of this mess you gave a very small standing Army. (some of which are to oppose you based on the oath of protecting the country against enemies foreign and domestic) and each state had state controlled troops (to one degree or another) as well as county local and state law officers all of whom are not going to be exactly happy that you peed all over the Constitution. So you can pretty much be 99.99999999% sure you will. get an open rebelion one way or another and of you size or another.
Remember we can be synical as we want about why WW1 (and WW2 for that matter) Started but those boys and men (and the women that supported them and went as well) were doing. it to make the world safe for democracy. They may have failed or been missled but the reason THEY went was to make the world safe. You are now suggesting these same folks will just sit back losinging all there fredoms and rights and let fellow citzens. get rounded up and sent to what they will percieve as a savage unsafe land to die.
Sorry but this is not the personality of the average citezen in the US at that time. This is not Russia where everyone is unarmed and one step removed from having been pesents for the last 1000 year.
So frankly if anyone was ever STUPID enough to try this the most probable result is he (the Idiot in question) probably died by the bullet of some unknown sniper. The reason the sniper is unknown is because no one is quite sure which 30 bullets from which of the 40 snippers is the one that actually Killed the idiot that took over the US. But we will get conspiracy. theories saying it was actually his Secret Service agents..
And have you ever noticed that the only folks that insist on ASB meaning physically impossible are those that are oroposing something that is ASB?
To pull this off you would need to organize about the equivalent of the US WW2 participation.
1) you need to take over the country
2) you need to disband the Supreme court.
3) You need to have enough troops to surpress the non black population that is going to be up in arms over point 1 and 2
4). you need to ALSO suppress the non Black population that is going to be up in arms over expirt. Black Citezens.
5). You need to suppress the Entire black population as well as control them while be relocated in the US and then on the ships to Africa.
6). You Somehow have to get the force to do this (pts 3,4 and 5) out of the small percentage that agree without while somehow not accidentally arming or putting those that appose you into a position of power.
7). You have to do all of this in a country that is the most heavily armed covilian population in the history if the world (including said blacks and the Non blacks that are pissed over points 1 and 2)
8). You have to build an absolutely amazing naval transportation system while doing all the above. The ships dont exist to just do this.
9). You have to build a navy to protect these ships and see they get to where you want (other countries are not going yo be thrilled with this)
10). You need tro build a HUGE Army and its naval support forces to invade your destination country as it is not going to just let you dump 12 million people you dont like on them. And you are going to have to control it long enough to finish sending said 12 million. (all while doing allthe above simultaneously)
11). You are going to have to PAY for this. While your country resist you (see point 1-5) And while the rest if the world embargos the crap out of you. (if you are lucky, i mean you are trying to comit genocide while invading a country, this could result in a nasty war with “right minded countries”
12). And don't forget you have to all this for long enough to pull off this deportation. I would guess 10 years 2 to get control of the US and toss the constitution on a bon fire and then a couple to start the ball rolling and invade your destination and then 5-6 to transport these folks and probably a couple years moping up those you missed.
Meanwhile the Underground railroad is going to get started again and Canada is not. going to be happy. So you have to walk on a wire to not het the British Empire involved. And of course you are. going to lose a ton of you economy when Canada embargos your ass.
And then we come to the gorilla in the room. A HUGE chunk of the population of the US was combat vets. And an even bigger part was armed and back then a lot of those armed folks were. good at hunting and the use if guns. What is often overlooked in the US is a goid percentage of the population recalls that at least in part the reason for the laws protecting gun ownership is in case the government gets out. if control, And at the start of this mess you gave a very small standing Army. (some of which are to oppose you based on the oath of protecting the country against enemies foreign and domestic) and each state had state controlled troops (to one degree or another) as well as county local and state law officers all of whom are not going to be exactly happy that you peed all over the Constitution. So you can pretty much be 99.99999999% sure you will. get an open rebelion one way or another and of you size or another.
Remember we can be synical as we want about why WW1 (and WW2 for that matter) Started but those boys and men (and the women that supported them and went as well) were doing. it to make the world safe for democracy. They may have failed or been missled but the reason THEY went was to make the world safe. You are now suggesting these same folks will just sit back losinging all there fredoms and rights and let fellow citzens. get rounded up and sent to what they will percieve as a savage unsafe land to die.
Sorry but this is not the personality of the average citezen in the US at that time. This is not Russia where everyone is unarmed and one step removed from having been pesents for the last 1000 year.
So frankly if anyone was ever STUPID enough to try this the most probable result is he (the Idiot in question) probably died by the bullet of some unknown sniper. The reason the sniper is unknown is because no one is quite sure which 30 bullets from which of the 40 snippers is the one that actually Killed the idiot that took over the US. But we will get conspiracy. theories saying it was actually his Secret Service agents..
rainsfall
Banned
Embargoing the US would be economic suicide for Canada, let alone the British Empire.
The 2nd Amendment does not work.
In no war has the US ever fought for the abstract ideals of "freedom and democracy".
Not all Russians are "peasants", even in 1932.
Murdering Bilbo would IMO only martyr him.
Your source stated 15 million, and then you said 20 million in your next post.
Show me Simon Sebag Montefiore’s degree above the graduate level on Russian, Soviet, or even general history and I’ll grant you that it’s a specialist book. But you can’t do that because he doesn’t have that degree and it’s not a specialist book. It’s is not peer reviewed, and it is a narrative biography of Stalin marketed to a mass readership. You can at least point me to Montefiore’s citation for that figure, but you can’t argue that the book is a specialist one. Whatever it’s literary merits might be, it does not purport to be a specific examination of the Stalinist legal system focusing on mass deportations. My source is, and why you would disregard it without even a mention is beyond me.
Is this a joke? Where have I deflated “my figures”? I pointed you towards an accredited source on the subject which you entirely ignored in favor of Montefiore.
You’ve also shifted the goalposts. We are discussing mass deportations under the Soviet Union, and suddenly you start citing a number purporting to be every single person arrested and imprisoned by the Stalin government prior to 1937. Am I to pretend like all imprisonments in the United States in 2022 can be subsumed under the category of “mass deportations and ethnic cleansings”? Because that’s nonsense. Categorically they are different things involving different processes and different resources and motives to undertake.
A penal colony system involving trials and individualized processes of transportation bears little resemblance to the rounding up of over twelve million African Americans in one sweeping decree, getting them all on boats, and sending them to West Africa. Soviet mass deportations do bear some resemblance, such as the Chechen or Korean deportations, but they paled in sheer numbers to what you are proposing. And massively inflating numbers and shifting goalposts with dubious sourcing is doing nothing to prove your case.
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i havent had time to read the ongoing debate, but as to the original point on how Bilbo could become president, he could be promoted from “pastemaster general” to postmaster general. I dont see him getting appointed to a higher cabinet position. You’d have to kill off 5 people to make him president lol, but I mean I guess its not impossible. More likely than the DNC collectively losing their minds. Maybe a mass poisoning through the mail, the first case of that kind of terrorism was in 1928 with silver nitrate, perhaps someone takes inspiration. The thought of Bilbo as postmaster general being the only one to not get poisoned because he’s bad at his job is so funny to me . Oh the conspiracy theories!
rainsfall
Banned
OK, never mind.
Review: [Untitled] on JSTOR
Golfo Alexopoulos, Journal of Cold War Studies, Vol. 10, No. 1 (Winter 2008), pp. 132-136
www.jstor.org
It is a specialist book and is peer reviewed. Your source is from a revisionist historian aiming to deflate the number of deportations under the Stalinist regime.
Your source is, again, from the revisionist school, which makes it non-credible by definition.
It's "ethnically cleansed and then deported", not just "arrested and imprisoned". the number of people actually arrested and imprisoned by the Stalin regime pre-1937 was higher than that.
Ethnic cleansing and mass deportations definitely does not involve "trials and individualized processes of transportation". Stalinist mass deportations were even bigger than 12 million, so Bilbo would have been no better than Stalin here. Your sourcing is dubious and you are the one who's shifting goalposts and deflating numbers now.
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The United States of the 1930s would not be logistically capable of such a thing.
First, many southerners profited directly from the slavery-like sharecropping system that employed a large section of the black population at the time. 30 to 50% of some states were black; deportations of that scale would cause the economy in those states to completely and utterly collapse. Ergo, the only way to get people in the South on board with such a plan would be to dismantle the sharecropping system and collapse the economy first, and the only way I see that happening is a civil war. For the sake of the scenario, let's just assume that the US really could have devolved into a second civil war in the 1930s or 1940s, which is far from guaranteed.
Second, 12 million people is a massive undertaking. It would probably take something like a full decade to accomplish such a thing (consider the highest rate of immigration to the US until this time was 1.3 million per year in 1907). Such an expense on a country that is so broken economically would be nothing short of lunacy.
Third, Liberia cannot hold that many people. It's population today is 5 million; its soil is far more suited for forestry than agriculture and its crop yields are chronically low. Part of the actual plan to deport the African-American population involved purchasing land in West Africa from Britain and France just to fit so many people, but even that wouldn't have been enough; the population of West Africa between Senegal and Benin was only 20 million at the time; a 60% increase in 10 years on top of the region's own natural growth rate would be catastrophic for everybody involved. And purchasing so much of Africa would have been yet another absurd expense that an economically shattered nation simply could not afford.
Fourth, and this is probably the big one, is that the black population would absolutely resist such a deportation. The only way they wouldn't is if they couldn't, and the only way that would happen would be if they were crushed militarily in a brutal civil war that killed off most of their adult male population. Something like the Paraguayan War.
So in this scenario, where the US erupts into a civil war, the blacks in the South rebel and coalesce into an ephemeral nation-state, and are then brutally massacred in a military campaign that itself qualifies as genocide, the survivors agree to move out of the United States over the course of at least a decade. Even then, they wouldn't all go to Liberia because, as said before, they logistically can't. The US would probably keep them in Bantustan-type areas and try to get other countries to accept them. But, of course, no country wants to take in refugees, and the US will have destroyed its credibility as a world power over the course of its civil war, so this would be completely useless. They would have to scrap the plan, keep the black population in some godforsaken corner of the country, and accept their status as a second-rate Power.
First, many southerners profited directly from the slavery-like sharecropping system that employed a large section of the black population at the time. 30 to 50% of some states were black; deportations of that scale would cause the economy in those states to completely and utterly collapse. Ergo, the only way to get people in the South on board with such a plan would be to dismantle the sharecropping system and collapse the economy first, and the only way I see that happening is a civil war. For the sake of the scenario, let's just assume that the US really could have devolved into a second civil war in the 1930s or 1940s, which is far from guaranteed.
Second, 12 million people is a massive undertaking. It would probably take something like a full decade to accomplish such a thing (consider the highest rate of immigration to the US until this time was 1.3 million per year in 1907). Such an expense on a country that is so broken economically would be nothing short of lunacy.
Third, Liberia cannot hold that many people. It's population today is 5 million; its soil is far more suited for forestry than agriculture and its crop yields are chronically low. Part of the actual plan to deport the African-American population involved purchasing land in West Africa from Britain and France just to fit so many people, but even that wouldn't have been enough; the population of West Africa between Senegal and Benin was only 20 million at the time; a 60% increase in 10 years on top of the region's own natural growth rate would be catastrophic for everybody involved. And purchasing so much of Africa would have been yet another absurd expense that an economically shattered nation simply could not afford.
Fourth, and this is probably the big one, is that the black population would absolutely resist such a deportation. The only way they wouldn't is if they couldn't, and the only way that would happen would be if they were crushed militarily in a brutal civil war that killed off most of their adult male population. Something like the Paraguayan War.
So in this scenario, where the US erupts into a civil war, the blacks in the South rebel and coalesce into an ephemeral nation-state, and are then brutally massacred in a military campaign that itself qualifies as genocide, the survivors agree to move out of the United States over the course of at least a decade. Even then, they wouldn't all go to Liberia because, as said before, they logistically can't. The US would probably keep them in Bantustan-type areas and try to get other countries to accept them. But, of course, no country wants to take in refugees, and the US will have destroyed its credibility as a world power over the course of its civil war, so this would be completely useless. They would have to scrap the plan, keep the black population in some godforsaken corner of the country, and accept their status as a second-rate Power.
There was a reason the Exoduster movement was so widely opposed by those in power in the South
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