WI:Peter Jackson had the rights to the full Tolkien legendarium

mojojojo

Gone Fishin'
Inspired by this thread https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=250364 As many of you know, Peter Jackson only has the right to film material that is in The Hobbit or the 3 books of the LOTR trilogy.Thusly what ever additional material he will film for his 3 Hobbit movies will have to come from the appendix that Tolkien added to the Return of The King.

Now what if Christopher Tolkien has given Peter Jackson the rights to the works that were published after his father's death.These would be

  • The Silmarillion (1977)




1990s


2000s

What do you think Peter Jackson would have done with these works? Was there any material in them that could have been added to the LOTR or Hobbit movies?
 
If that's the case, I think the Legendarium would become something like Star Trek. Different stories set in the same universe, but having characters that are unique to each story, but also allowing for "cross-overs".
 
Well the Silmarillion would either be a TV series OR he would have to just make movies off specific stories whilst alluding to the rest of the material in the book in the dialogue for those movies.

I certainly can't see a movie solely based off Ainulindalë and Valaquenta isn't really a story so the descriptions contained in the Valaquenta would have to be worked into other movies/episodes.

He could have movies about Beren and Lúthien, The Children of Húrin, Gondolin and The Voyage of Eärendil.

He could also have a movie about Akallabêth....maybe. I remember seeing an idea for such a movie from the fellow who has the Ardalambion site. Actually, here is the movie idea.
 
Not while Christopher Tolkien is alive.

I take Christopher Tolkien with a grain of salt. He was one of a very select number of people who got to see Lord of the Rings in its draft form, in addition to helping his father create the maps and chronologies of Middle Earth, so he has strong feelings of nostalgia for Lord of the Rings, in addition to being the sole conservator of his father's writings.

Having said that, I think that most of his "objections" to Peter Jackson's take on LOTR are based solely on money, which I can sort of understand. If I had written a seminal fantasy novel that got turned into a multibillion dollar film franchise, I'd want a piece of the action too, but I think he is not seeing the forest for the trees, which is that before the films were released, Lord of the Rings was read mosty by lit geeks and serious fantasists.

Afterward people watched these absolutely spectacular looking films and went out and bought the novels because fantasy was suddenly in vogue thanks to the one-two punch of Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings. And now its about to happen again with The Hobbit, because Peter Jackson has proven that he can be trusted with the material. If I were Christopher Tolkien, I'd be asking for a cut of the proceeds from the films, but I'd also be very greatful for the exposure that the films have given to some of the foundational works of modern fantasy literature.
 
They would have to change a lot of the words in Simeralian for it to be popular. In some ways it reads like it was written in the Middle Ages which is what I am sure he was going for. However, that wouldn't do well in a mass market. There are reasons why LOTR sells a lot better than Simeralian does. It is not the movies as it always sold much better. The writing style is much more modern so easier to read.
 
Obviously if it was adapted to film it would be modernized. But the point of it was to explain the origins of Middle Earth and its early histories which is why it is biblical in style. If modernized it would probably be divided into parts and those would be similar to LOTR or Troy.
 

AndyC

Donor
I take Christopher Tolkien with a grain of salt. He was one of a very select number of people who got to see Lord of the Rings in its draft form, in addition to helping his father create the maps and chronologies of Middle Earth, so he has strong feelings of nostalgia for Lord of the Rings, in addition to being the sole conservator of his father's writings.

Having said that, I think that most of his "objections" to Peter Jackson's take on LOTR are based solely on money, which I can sort of understand. If I had written a seminal fantasy novel that got turned into a multibillion dollar film franchise, I'd want a piece of the action too, but I think he is not seeing the forest for the trees, which is that before the films were released, Lord of the Rings was read mosty by lit geeks and serious fantasists.

Nope. Their objections were not based on money. That said, there was a legal disagreement between New Line Cinemas and the Tolkien Estate given that a percentage of the profits was promised to the Tolkien Estate (who, as it turns out, donates the vast majority of income from all Tolkien-related works to various charities; their major activity is deciding how much to give to who). New Line claimed repeatedly that the films made no profits whatsoever, so they didn't have to redeem their commitment. This claim seemed implausible to the Tolkien Estate ... (seems rather implausible to me, for that matter!)

I saw a list of charities supported in 2007 - I won't dominate the thread with the list, suffice it to say that there 135 charities supported that year. The Trustees do not even draw expenses.

The "it's all about money" line has been peddled very successfully by fans of New Line in the past and is in my opinion a very obnoxious and unfair one.

The complaints are that PJ lost a great deal of the characterisation and themes of the novels in his adaptation and overdid the "dumbing down" factor and overdramatisation. And it got worse as the films went along.

Obviously there are changes that have to be made to a story in translating from one medium to another (for example, very few people would quibble about cutting Tom Bombadil). The more egregious changes (wizards duels are of the format "Crouching Gandalf, Hidden Saruman", the riding of falling staircases, changing the Ents story to incoherency, changing the motivations of Denethor from complex and haunted to simplistic insane baddy, the dominance of Theoden being pure magic spells, the Chariots of Fire orc, Gimli becoming stupid comic relief, the loss of any need for the charge of the Rohirrim by the magic assault of the Dead, Sauron the Magic Lighthouse, the loss of any depth to character after character are merely the first things that spring to mind) are the issue.

The problem I had is that through much of the movies, there are flashes of how the film could have been done right. The visuals were largely superb. When we had the Nazgul searching for Frodo in the Shire coming across him and having him hide - the distortion of reality when the Nazgul was approaching was the kind of subtle yet visual trick that could have been used so well throughout.

Unfortunately, whenever you critique the movies, film fans come back with an insistence that "changes have to be made to a book" (yes, the critique is on stupid changes), "the films are far more popular than the books" (yes, and "50 shades of Grey" is far more popular than ah.com. Doesn't make it a better read), and inevitably "What, do you think it would have been better if Tom Bombadil was involved?" (No, he was cut even from the excellent BBC radio dramatisation)

Afterward people watched these absolutely spectacular looking films and went out and bought the novels because fantasy was suddenly in vogue thanks to the one-two punch of Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings. And now its about to happen again with The Hobbit, because Peter Jackson has proven that he can be trusted with the material. If I were Christopher Tolkien, I'd be asking for a cut of the proceeds from the films, but I'd also be very greatful for the exposure that the films have given to some of the foundational works of modern fantasy literature.
PJ is somehow turning the Hobbit into a trilogy. God only knows what he's done to it. Then again, as it's rather a travelogue of a book and the visuals were PJ's forte, and the characterisation in the Hobbit was far more shallow, I'm far less fussed over it and more looking forward to it (as long as we don't have sumo wrestling between the Necromancer and Gandalf in a ring made of moving Wargs ...)

Chris Tolkien has sued New Line for the contractually obligated cut of the LoTR film trilogy's profits already, yes.
 

mojojojo

Gone Fishin'
PJ is somehow turning the Hobbit into a trilogy. God only knows what he's done to it. Then again, as it's rather a travelogue of a book and the visuals were PJ's forte, and the characterisation in the Hobbit was far more shallow, I'm far less fussed over it and more looking forward to it (as long as we don't have sumo wrestling between the Necromancer and Gandalf in a ring made of moving Wargs ...)
Is there anything in the Silmarilion or The Unfinished Tales that could have plausibly been added to the Hobbit films?
 
Is there anything in the Silmarilion or The Unfinished Tales that could have plausibly been added to the Hobbit films?

I don't know. I think he's actaully mining the Appendices from Return of the King for the additional material for the second and third Hobbit films.
 
Is there anything in the Silmarilion or The Unfinished Tales that could have plausibly been added to the Hobbit films?


I think their is something about Gandalf in that one, though I can't quite remember it, but it's set sometime before The Hobbit, and relates directly to it. I guess maybe that, but I don't know...
 
Nope. Their objections were not based on money. That said, there was a legal disagreement between New Line Cinemas and the Tolkien Estate given that a percentage of the profits was promised to the Tolkien Estate (who, as it turns out, donates the vast majority of income from all Tolkien-related works to various charities; their major activity is deciding how much to give to who).

Chris Tolkien has sued New Line for the contractually obligated cut of the LoTR film trilogy's profits already, yes.


Well, actually, you've admitted that it is about money, at least in part because The Tolkein Estate had a contractual agreement with the studio to recieve a percentage of the profits generated by the films in order fund its charitable endeavours and had to sue in order to collect. I see that as nothing more than a business arrangement. I don't take issue with that. I just call it as I see it.

Having said that, you've missed the other parts of my point which are that Christopher Tolkein grew up with tales of Middle Earth and readily admits that as a child, the locations of Middle Earth were more real to him than many real world locations. He later became the gate keeper of a great literary legacy and obviously feels beholdened to that, but there is a reason why I think that he is not seeing the forest for the trees and its because a well made film will drive viewers to the book that it is based on, which means that people are being exposed to Tolkein's philosophy because of the films, not in spite of them.
 

AndyC

Donor
Well, actually, you've admitted that it is about money, at least in part because The Tolkein Estate had a contractual agreement with the studio to recieve a percentage of the profits generated by the films in order fund its charitable endeavours and had to sue in order to collect. I see that as nothing more than a business arrangement. I don't take issue with that. I just call it as I see it.
Your implication, however, was that absent the money issue, there would have been no problem. My stance is that absent the money issue, there would have been no change.

Having said that, you've missed the other parts of my point which are that Christopher Tolkein grew up with tales of Middle Earth and readily admits that as a child, the locations of Middle Earth were more real to him than many real world locations. He later became the gate keeper of a great literary legacy and obviously feels beholdened to that, but there is a reason why I think that he is not seeing the forest for the trees and its because a well made film will drive viewers to the book that it is based on, which means that people are being exposed to Tolkein's philosophy because of the films, not in spite of them.
He is certainly affected by being the nominated literary executor for his father, yes. The thing is that he obviously dislikes the idea of his father's work being damaged visually even if such would encourage some to reach out to the original sources.

As it happens, I do think that elements of the Silmarillion could be well treated in movie form, but I really don't think that PJ, with his demonstrated tin ear for subtlety, character, the explicit and implicit themes and weaving of plot (all of which can certainly work in a movie medium with a skilled director/producer) would be at all a good choice to realise it.
 
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