WI/PC: World War 2 in 1938?

Some buddies and I were having a discussion over what would happen if World War 2 were to breakout over the Munich Crisis and the Sudetenland. I think that its a pretty poor situation for Germany to be in having to fight a two fronted war against the Czechs, Poland, Britain, and France. The Soviets we all agreed would sit out seeing as how they have the most to gain from a beat up Germany, Poland, and Czechoslovakia.

What do you guys think?
 
Only thing is how to make France and Britain stay behind Czechoslovakia and do actually more then they did in September 1939.
If France got involved Soviets may send some volunteers and maybe aircrafts to Czechoslovakia. Otherwise they don't have much possibilities. Poles wouldn't even allow Soviets transfer to Czechoslovakia. Romanians were signaling Czechoslovakia they would allow Soviets transfer through their territory. If France and Britain are involved Romania may indeed allow Soviets to send some bigger units.
Problem is how to change Paris and London attitude so late. Better Czechoslovak counter propaganda to Goebbels may help a bit but otherwise?
 
If France and Britain support Czechoslovakia, Poland will stand with them. It was logical: France was Poland's greatest ally and main protection against Germany. If France goes to war with Germany, Poles will follow, perhaps not enthusiastically, but they will.
Besides, from Polish POV it would be a very profitable solution - combined forces of France, Britan, Czechoslovakia and Poland would make a quick job with the German Army of 1938, so the risk is not so big. A potential threat to Poland in the west would be eliminated for quite some time. And Poles might also hope for some territorial concessions in Silesia, even more profitable than territories (re)taken from Czechoslovakia.
 
Some buddies and I were having a discussion over what would happen if World War 2 were to breakout over the Munich Crisis and the Sudetenland. I think that its a pretty poor situation for Germany to be in having to fight a two fronted war against the Czechs, Poland, Britain, and France.

If France and Britain support Czechoslovakia, Poland will stand with them. It was logical: France was Poland's greatest ally and main protection against Germany. If France goes to war with Germany, Poles will follow, perhaps not enthusiastically, but they will.
Besides, from Polish POV it would be a very profitable solution - combined forces of France, Britan, Czechoslovakia and Poland would make a quick job with the German Army of 1938, so the risk is not so big. A potential threat to Poland in the west would be eliminated for quite some time. And Poles might also hope for some territorial concessions in Silesia, even more profitable than territories (re)taken from Czechoslovakia.

Not sure where the idea that Poland comes in on this on the Allied side is coming from. OTL... once the Germans had mobilized for war, Poland issued its own ultimatum to the Czechs, threatening to invade as well if they did not cede Teschen, which had its own Polish population and had been a point of contention since the end of WWI. A little known fact is that before Czechoslovakia, Germany and Poland had signed a non-aggression pact, which Czechoslovakia rightly saw as a Polish stab-in-the-back, but the Poles (and the Russians after them) failed to realize was simply placing them next on the menu. If the Czechs are telling Germany to fuck off, they're probably saying the same to the Poles...

Now how willing the Poles really were to fight over their demanded concessions is an open question, but they certainly were not willing to fight the Germans.

As for combat: the Czech military (and the Germans after they took over Czechoslovakia) did not rate their chances highly, and gave themselves three weeks. The Polish experience shows that that's FAR too little time for France to do anything meaningful, especially given how the Anglo-French have just started their own military-industrial mobilizations...
 
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Not sure where the idea that Poland comes in on this on the Allied side is coming from. OTL... once the Germans had mobilized for war, Poland issued its own ultimatum to the Czechs, threatening to invade as well if they did not cede Teschen, which had its own Polish population and had been a point of contention since the end of WWI. A little known fact is that before Czechoslovakia, Germany and Poland had signed a non-aggression pact, which Czechoslovakia rightly saw as a Polish stab-in-the-back, but the Poles (and the Russians after them) failed to realize was simply placing them next on the menu. If the Czechs are telling Germany to fuck off, they're probably saying the same to the Poles...
Well actually Poles started to really press their demands after Munich. Before Munich if I remember correctly Benes even wrote letter to Polish president in which he basically offered to cede Tesin area to Poland in exchange for their neutrality. It is more likely if war really started and not deal is cut before between Czechoslovakia and Poland, Czechoslovak troops would retreat from Tesin area and Poles would march in. I believe even Prague preferred this before Germans occupying area.

Now how willing the Poles really were to fight over their demanded concessions is an open question, but they certainly were not willing to fight the Germans.
As history shows Poles were willing to fight after Munich. In Slovakia there was one day fight in north western Slovakia - Cadca region where, again if I remember correctly 2 Polish soldiers were killed and 2 Czechoslovak -1 Czech and one Slovak (for a while it was reminded as a willingness of Czechs and Slovaks fighting together for their country ;) ) There was one more shoot out between Czechoslovak troops in Tatra region when Czechoslovaks refused to retreat from village Zdiar. Polish Major Stefan Rago was killed and polish NCO Oleksinski wounded. No casualties on Czechoslovak side were reported. Czechoslovaks were under command of colonel Duda.

As for combat: the Czech military (and the Germans after they took over Czechoslovakia) did not rate their chances highly, and gave themselves three weeks. The Polish experience shows that that's FAR too little time for France to do anything meaningful, especially given how the Anglo-French have just started their own military-industrial mobilizations...
Well I have seen three weeks just for Czech lands. The thing is, if French and Great Britain declared war, Hungary would be much less wiling to do something in first place and Romania and Yugoslavia would be more willing to keep Hungary in check. OTL Romania declared partial mobilization in March 1939 when Hungarians started to move into Ruthenia! Prague had to confirm to Bucurect Czechoslovakia dissolved and Prague do not require Romania to act in conduct with their alliance.
Czechoslovakia had almost two armies in Slovakia. 3rd against Hungary and 4th I believe which was deployed mostly in Slovakia and parts of eastern Moravia - which was reserves.
That Czech lands will fall after 3-4 weeks is very likely. In Slovak mountains situation is bit different. We have few examples from WWII. Slovaks managed form end of August to end of October 1944 defend with part of former Slovak army against Germans. On other side it took Soviet, Czechoslovak and Romanian troops from end of October 1944 to April 1945 to get through Slovakia!

If Poland was indeed neutral or allied, Hungary stayed unfriendly neutral and supplies would be running through allied Romania (from west and let say from Soviets), Czechoslovak army can very likely held up for some time in Slovakia. With winter coming even German superiority in Air Force would mean much less.
 
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One thing I forgot. According to Czechoslovak sources over 60 000 volunteers were registered, mostly Serbians from Yugoslavia before Munich.
 
This is what should have happened

France does not actually need to mobilise as such - the threat of her Mobilising while all of Germany's enemies also mobilise - in 1938 is too great for Germany.

I cannot recall the exact size of the German Military but it was significantly smaller in 1938 than it was in late 39 (which was again significantly smaller than what it was in 1940!)

Isolated and significantly outnumbered I don't think that it would even come to war.

Hitler would bottle it and who knows maybe the 'great' National Socialist dream would be stillborn by 1939?
 
France does not actually need to mobilise as such - the threat of her Mobilising while all of Germany's enemies also mobilise - in 1938 is too great for Germany.

I cannot recall the exact size of the German Military but it was significantly smaller in 1938 than it was in late 39 (which was again significantly smaller than what it was in 1940!)

There is absolutely no basis for this belief. In 1938 British and French military leaders were shrilly informing their political masters that a war with Germany would be a slaughter as the endless Tuetonic hordes overran the ill prepared armies of the democracies. This was an exaggeration, but the best information the politicians had from their military experts at the time was that if it came to war France and Britain would lose, and lose badly.

The reality was quite a bit different, but not necessarily in the WAllies favor. Germany may not have been as powerful in 1938 as she would be in 1940, but then, neither were the Allies. While contemporary fears were overblown, in many ways the military balance was still more favorable for Germany in 1938 since she was well into her own mobilization while her enemies were just starting their own. Certainly Czechoslovakia would have been doomed. German military studies of her defences after the occupation found them ill equipped and positioned in ways that left them vulnerable to German artillery, while the historical Czech deployments would have played into German hands and likely seen most of their army destroyed near the border. Arguments that postulate the heroic Czechs repulsing the Germans in a bloody slaughter are based on rosy pre-war assessments by military officers who looked favourably on rows of Czech fixed fortresses, and had no concept of the kind of fighting WWII would bring.

So France and Britain could easily have found themselves in a conflict almost as terrible as the historical one. We might then be lamenting how a horrible war ravaged Europe only a generation after WWI because European leaders still hadn't learned to get together and talk out their differences.

Isolated and significantly outnumbered I don't think that it would even come to war.

Hitler would bottle it and who knows maybe the 'great' National Socialist dream would be stillborn by 1939?
Might Hitler have been overthrown, by German Generals who don't think they ready for war.

The Oster Conspiracy was probably a pipe dream.

"For its part, the army tried to use its control of personnel assignments to affect the balance of power. Fritsch and Beck believed they could torpedo the War Ministtry's ambitions [for war with Czechoslovakia, which they had been ordered to start planning in 1935] by filling key positions with officers who would defend the army's point of view. For example, in the late summer of 1935 Beck went to the chief of the Army Personnel Office, Lieutenant General Viktor von Schwedler, and said he needed an officer to be Reichenau's replacement as head of the Armed Forces Office. The officer should be a good administrator, Beck added, but not too bright, and someone who would not sell the army out. Schwedler said he could only think of one man: Brigadier General Wilhelm Keitel. Beck took the suggestion to Fritsch, who nominated Keitel to Blomberg. Blomberg accepted, and Keitel took up his post on October 1. However Keitel soon demonstrated that he believed just as firmly in the principle of centralized Wehrmacht command as Reichenau had, and he outdid Reichenau in loyalty to Hitler."
-Geoffrey P. Megargee, "Inside Hitler's High Command," p.34

And to show how serious a miscalculation this was:

"[Keitel] quickly became convinced of Hitler's genius as a political and military leader. 'At the bottom of my heart I was a loyal shield-bearer for Adolf Hitler,' he told Allied interrogators after the war, 'my personal convictions would have been National Socialist.' Moreover he fell completely under the spell of Hitler's personality, and his way of avoiding conflict was to agree loudly with everything the Fuhrer suggested."
-Megargee, p.41

Following the purge of Blomberg and Fritsch on trumped up scandals, Keitel became Hitler's right hand man. As a replacement for Fritsch, Keitel nominated Walther von Brauchitsch.

"Brauchitsch's character was hardly suited for his new position. He did not have the force of personality to stand up to Hitler on those occasions when the two men disagreed. . .Hitler found his bearing infuriating, but the Fuhrer rarely had any trouble cowing him."
-Megargee, p.42

Hitler then took personal leadership of the Wehrmacht in Blomberg's place, a move that shocked Beck, who had not anticipated such a move and undid many of his machinations to move the army out from under Hitler's thumb. Hitler rapidly consolidated his control. There was some danger that the Army might rally behind Fritsch, who had been falsely accuse of homosexuality. Hitler used the occupation of Austria to distract the army leadership, and with Anschluss was able to pull of another foreign policy coup that silenced most of his doubters. Fritsch's trial ultimately found him innocent, but by then Hitler had made his position unassailable.

Beck was now increasingly isolated. His picked man had become Hitler's fervent lackey; Fritsch had been replaced by Brauchitsch who had no stomach for confronting Hitler, even if he had been willing to do so on Beck's behalf (which he was not, Brauchitsch and Beck did not like each other); and worst of all, Hitler had taken Blomberg's position for himself, to general acclaim by the Wehrmacht leadership. Throughout July and August Beck attempted to convince the other Generals to join him in opposing Hitler's plan, but was met with stony silence. Braunchitsch would not back him up, and he convinced no one.

"At the end of July, Manstien, then a division commander [and formerly Beck's assistant - Beck recognized Manstien's brilliance and had deep respect for him], provided Back with some unsolicited - and illuminating - advice. In his view, the problems Beck was experiencing were the result of a faulty command organization. 'It seems completely unavoidable to me, that the fact that the Fuhrer is receiving advice on military questions from two sides must in the end shake his confidence in that advice,' he wrote. 'Also diverging views or the entrance also of lesser figures from OKW could be used to discredit the military leadership.' He went on to suggest that in wartime, Hitler should have command of both the armed forces and the army; that would eliminate the internal conflicts (which the army had been losing) and place great power in the hands of the Chief of the General Staff. As far as the attack on Czechoslovakia was concerned, Manstein considered this a political decision that Hitler should make, and for which he would have to accept responsibility. Finally, Manstein argued that if only the commander in chief of the army and the chief of the General Staff could forge a closer bond with Hitler, they could win his trust and overcome the bad advice coming from the OKW.

"Manstein's letter underscores the futility of Beck's efforts to inspire resistance against Hitler's plans. In fact, Manstein managed to encapsulate, in just a few pages, the main problem with officers of the high command: their inclination to deal with operational and organizational details instead of broader issues of "politics"; their unwillingness to let go of personal power for the sake of unified leadership; and their complete obliviousness to the dangers of Germany's strategic position."
Megargee, pp.50-51

On August 18th, having failed to sway Hitler, Beck resigned as Chief of the General Staff, penning the prophetic words, "I wish, as Chief of the General Staff, to make it a matter of record that I have refused to approve any kind of National Socialist adventure. A final German victory is impossible." Beck had hoped his resignation might be followed by mass resignations among the other Generals. Not a single one of them followed him. Hitler even managed to get Beck not to publicize his resignation for "national security reasons," which removed any effect the act might have had on the wider German population.

In 11th hour before the invasion of Czechoslovakia, with the prior removal of Hitler's other opponents, Beck's voice was the sole voice in the wilderness, and the rest of the German generals marched happily into annihilation behind their Fuhrer.

Franz Halder was Beck's replacement. He shared Beck's concerns over Hitler's foreign policy (Halder had in fact been pushing Beck on from the shadows), but was not open in his opposition, instead choosing various forms of obstructionist behaviour. Ultimately this proved counterproductive, because Hitler quickly cottoned on, and had the power to circumvent Halder himself, which he did. Halder laid plans for a coup, to be triggered on the outbreak of war over Czechoslovakia, but the problem was that as Chief of the General Staff he didn't actually command any troops himself and relied on other Generals to execute the plan.

Halder actually had little faith that his coup attempt would succeed, since he was sure it would be opposed by most of the rank and file, but he felt it was necessary to at least try so as to avert disaster. Some historians have portrayed it as a sure thing, but it was really a crazy roll of the dice, and all the odds were against its success, particularly if war had just been declared, an act that would rally the soldiers more closely behind Hitler. Halder quickly cancelled the attempt once the Munich agreement was announced, but had he proceeded his chances of success were, by his own estimation, low.

Given how Halder flinched from further coups and attempts on Hitler, I find it likely that even had the Allies gone to war in 1938, he'd have flinched then as well. We have to remember that Halder wrote most of those histories, so we get a rather more favorable view of him than we would otherwise.
 
Certainly Czechoslovakia would have been doomed. German military studies of her defences after the occupation found them ill equipped and positioned in ways that left them vulnerable to German artillery
Germans used Czechoslovak fortification against Soviet advance to Ostrava region in 1945. Soviet artillery chipped of some concrete but at the end Soviets needed to find their way around in different places.
According to some reports Germans themselves concluded their artillery available at the time couldn't do much.

while the historical Czech deployments would have played into German hands and likely seen most of their army destroyed near the border. Arguments that postulate the heroic Czechs repulsing the Germans in a bloody slaughter are based on rosy pre-war assessments by military officers who looked favourably on rows of Czech fixed fortresses, and had no concept of the kind of fighting WWII would bring.
Which armies? 1st definitely and Czechoslovak commanders knew about it. Again, in case of war against Germany with France committing, Czechoslovak generality never counted with possibility to defend Czech lands! That's why capital, government and president would be moved to Slovak mountain town Liptovsky Mikulas.
Czechoslovak top military leaders were giving 3 weeks without France and not real chance for possible relieve and with Poland and Hungary jumping in.

That's why my answer to original question was that you need to get France and eventually Britain involved.

However with France declaring Poland would be more friendly neutral and Hungary very likely neutral and waiting till last minute. In that case Czechoslovak top commanders were counting with few months of defense from Slovakia, giving chance to France get ready. With winter coming they may be even right.
Of course with our knowledge what France did OTL in 1939 we can have some doubts any help would be coming at all. Even Soviets were giving strange answer on direct questions to Czechoslovaks OTL.
Anyway 3rd Army and huge parts of 4th were in western Slovakia. Parts of 2nd Czechoslovak army in case of German break through would be able to retreat to Slovakia. It would be slaughter. Regular question rise however. OTL Czechoslovak military losses in WWII were anyway around 46 000 and civilian up to 320 000. Would it be worst OTL and if how much?

So France and Britain could easily have found themselves in a conflict almost as terrible as the historical one. We might then be lamenting how a horrible war ravaged Europe only a generation after WWI because European leaders still hadn't learned to get together and talk out their differences.
Very likely question would be popping out, especially on WI forums. ;) But, Germany will be in 1939 without Czechoslovak armor - OTL some 350 pcs plus production facilities for one of the best light tank of WWII. I believe 153 38s were finished in 1939 and apx 160 in first half of 1940. Without Czechoslovak artillery, light arms for some 1 000 000 troops and without facilities to continue their production. Plus planes gotten and used for training of German pilots? Wouldn't that greatly improve France and Britain chances on ground? As well as Poland's?

There is story going around that Benes was looking with kind of satisfaction in 1940 when Rommel's 7th Panzer was plowing through France equipped mainly with Czechoslovak LT-38s. I don't blame him if true. ;)
 
Germans used Czechoslovak fortification against Soviet advance to Ostrava region in 1945. Soviet artillery chipped of some concrete but at the end Soviets needed to find their way around in different places.

Like almost all pre-war defences, Czech fortifications lacked sufficient depth, being 5km at their deepest, and only 100m at their narrowest. With key industrial areas a short distance behind the border, any fallback would also have crippled Czech war production. Worse, in 1938 the fortifications were not complete, and heavy artillery in particular was lacking. The line was manned largely by immobile fortress divisions, and lacked the necessary ability for local and large scale counter attacks which WWII showed were the key to holding any defended line.

This is not enough for modern warfare, particularly since at many points the fortification line was in direct line of sight to German gun positions, which could break them open with raw firepower. In 1940, while conducting an assault river crossing from hasty positions, the Germans punched through over 10km of French fortifications in a single day. In 1938 the Germans would have penetrated the Czech line in numerous locations in short order.

The Czechs were not unaware of these weaknesses, but their original war-plans assumed they would only face a small portion of the overall German strength, with France diverting the bulk of the German army west. Unfortunately for them, as with Poland, Hitler intended to throw nearly everything at Czechoslovakia and trust in French inaction. As with Poland, this would have been a successful gamble.

With all these factors, six months is wildly optimistic. The Czechs would have made a fight of it, but their fate would probably have been measured in weeks, not months.

According to some reports Germans themselves concluded their artillery available at the time couldn't do much.
The Germans tested the Czech fortifications after their conquest of Czechoslovakia and found only the largest fortifications could be destroyed by direct fire from their 88s and 15cm guns. Given how thin and far apart said largest fortifications would be (which are probably the same ones the Germans used against the Soviets), they would be swiftly isolated and rendered irrelevant (as they were against the Soviets).

That's why capital, government and president would be moved to Slovak mountain town Liptovsky Mikulas.
Given that the bulk of the Czech army would be crushed against the border, this region would have rapidly fallen. Mountains are no obstacle when there are no troops to defend them.

Which armies?
Practically all of them. Czech defense plans were based around holding in their fortified regions long enough for the French to mount an offensive. They assumed that would only take weeks. We know this from flat historical example to be wrong.

Czechoslovak top military leaders were giving 3 weeks without France
And we know from the case of Poland that French assistance won't be materializing in 3 weeks, remotely. So it might as well be without France. Just because the French declare war and start mobilizing their forces doesn't mean their actually attacking, which is what Hitler was counting on. And we know that Hitler was right.

and not real chance for possible relieve and with Poland and Hungary jumping in.
It was against the Germans alone. The Czechs are outnumbered 2-1 in manpower, 4-1 in combat aircraft, and 5-1 in tanks. Yes, the Czechs have a advantage in the quality of some of their tanks, but then so did the French in 1940. The German ground forces are actually better trained then they would be in 1939, since the continued expansion of the army steadily diluted the cadre of trained officers and NCOs, and the basis for their maneuver warfare doctrine has long been established. A months long resistance is fantasy, we're looking at weeks.

But, Germany will be in 1939 without Czechoslovak armor - OTL some 350 pcs plus production facilities for one of the best light tank of WWII. I believe 153 38s were finished in 1939 and apx 160 in first half of 1940. Without Czechoslovak artillery, light arms for some 1 000 000 troops and without facilities to continue their production. Plus planes gotten and used for training of German pilots? Wouldn't that greatly improve France and Britain chances on ground?
All of that certainly improves their chances of not collapsing completely, but not collapsing completely is not the same as avoiding a terrible, long, bloody, and devastating conflict.

And at least some of the Czech industry will be captured intact. It's proximity to the border does not leave much time for demolitions to be carried out once the defenses are breached.

As well as Poland's?
Poland's doomed if the Germans come after them regardless, unless the Soviets or French come to their aid (we know from OTL that the latter won't happen, but who knows about the former). The resource disparity is too great.
 
Like almost all pre-war defences, Czech fortifications lacked sufficient depth, being 5km at their deepest, and only 100m at their narrowest.

Of course, but that’s main fortifications on the borders. There were also some 120 km long lines of light fortifications in half circle in front of Prague. Also Czechoslovakia mobilized twice in 1938. In September 23rd – more than week before expected hostilities could start OTL (probably October 1st or 2nd, however I have seen article according to which Germans were not aware at least of 10 Czechoslovak mobilized divisions. According to same article positions of Germans were good for surprise attack but not to attack army already in positions and they would need another week or two just to reorganize.)

According to Czechoslovak sources:

In 1938 on whole territory of Czechoslovak Republic field fortifications were quickly erected. During May and September mobilization Army was strengthening by field fortification its defensive positions. Field fortifications are strengthening lines of light as well as heavy fortification or they are supplementing lines where fortification were not built yet. Field fortifications are built also deep in Czechoslovak territory on lines of retreat.



With key industrial areas a short distance behind the border, any fallback would also have crippled Czech war production. Worse, in 1938 the fortifications were not complete, and heavy artillery in particular was lacking. The line was manned largely by immobile fortress divisions, and lacked the necessary ability for local and large scale counter attacks which WWII showed were the key to holding any defended line.


Skoda was close to border in Plzen. That’s the fact and after the line would be breached would fall fast. Many others were in Prague and Brno. However there were already some artillery and light arms factories manufacturing in Slovakia in 1938. After 1939 they become part of Herman Goering Werke.

This is not enough for modern warfare, particularly since at many points the fortification line was in direct line of sight to German gun positions, which could break them open with raw firepower. In 1940, while conducting an assault river crossing from hasty positions, the Germans punched through over 10km of French fortifications in a single day. In 1938 the Germans would have penetrated the Czech line in numerous locations in short order.

As shown, there were preparation for additional field defenses on lines to which troops were to retreat after border fortification were breached. True is Czechoslovakia lacked in manufacturing of AT rifles, as well as production of antipersonnel and antitank mines started to late and numbers were small.


The Czechs were not unaware of these weaknesses, but their original war-plans assumed they would only face a small portion of the overall German strength, with France diverting the bulk of the German army west. Unfortunately for them, as with Poland, Hitler intended to throw nearly everything at Czechoslovakia and trust in French inaction. As with Poland, this would have been a successful gamble.
However it was not expected to hold Western Czech lands against German advance.



With all these factors, six months is wildly optimistic. The Czechs would have made a fight of it, but their fate would probably have been measured in weeks, not months.
6 months is probably very optimistic indeed but I guess we will never know.


The Germans tested the Czech fortifications after their conquest of Czechoslovakia and found only the largest fortifications could be destroyed by direct fire from their 88s and 15cm guns. Given how thin and far apart said largest fortifications would be (which are probably the same ones the Germans used against the Soviets), they would be swiftly isolated and rendered irrelevant (as they were against the Soviets).

Actually according to sources I have seen Germans tested fortifications extensively after Sudetenland was incorporated into Reich. According to test results even Light Objects (LO) were vulnerable only to direct fire from 10.5 or 15 cm artillery. However German tests also showed if 37 mm AT gun was pulled directly in front of the LO, direct hit to the MG opening could disable part of crew. How it would work for crew of AT gun is probably different story.



And Czechoslovak tests of LO from 1936 showed similar results:

Most destruction was achieved with fire from 15 cm howitzer in direct fire from 150 m. Shell hit front wall (however front wall during tests was before already fired upon artillery of others calibers and weakened by ½), end get through. Other, lower calibers (8 cm and 10 cm) from 150 m were not able to penetrate. Czechoslovak tests with all above mentioned artillery calibers from 3500 m however were not able to show any penetration.

Interesting is that for example Hungarians were actively destroying almost all LO on former Czechoslovak Hungarian border.




Given that the bulk of the Czech army would be crushed against the border, this region would have rapidly fallen. Mountains are no obstacle when there are no troops to defend them.

I am sorry I don’t want to look rude but did you look at map where Liptovsky Mikulas is? Again 3rd Army was located in Slovakia. 1st Czechoslovak Army in Western Czechoslovakia would be indeed one having biggest problems to retreat to the East and very likely wouldn’t make it. That’s still leaving 2nd, 3rd and 4th Armies in Eastern part of Moravia-Silesia. Plus there where divisions of High Command reserves located in western Slovakia. So there will be very likely troops left to defend Slovak-Czech internal border.
Here is some example how area in Slovakia (except south on border with Hungary) looks like

https://www.google.com/search?q=slo...S6Fpgf6EORP&q=pohorie slovensko ceska hranica




Practically all of them. Czech defense plans were based around holding in their fortified regions long enough for the French to mount an offensive. They assumed that would only take weeks. We know this from flat historical example to be wrong.
You are mistaken. Czechoslovak plan was “if possible hold fortified regions”, however plan was to retreat, if necessary to Slovak Czech internal border. Czechoslovak planners were aware of shape of the country. Role of fortification was mostly to cover mobilization and preserve menpower. Due to Hitler trying to negotiate (successfully we have to say), Czechoslovaks mobilized without problems. And probably because of these plans 2 armies were located in Moravia and Silesia and 1 in Slovakia and that’s why big part of divisions from strategic reserves were located in Slovakia.

And we know from the case of Poland that French assistance won't be materializing in 3 weeks, remotely. So it might as well be without France. Just because the French declare war and start mobilizing their forces doesn't mean their actually attacking, which is what Hitler was counting on. And we know that Hitler was right.
We know that Poland was attacked from 3 sides due to Germany occupying Czechia and Moravia and from now puppet Slovakia. With Soviets adding from East later. Poland was in same position 1939 as Czechoslovakia would be if … If Poland and Hungary joined the fray.
Czechoslovaks actually needed not just France military but also moral support. (Full support of France and Britain – I said before biggest problem of this thread was for original poster to somehow get this full support). With France full support Poland will be not threat at all – actually Czechoslovak would be very likely to abandon Tesin area and eventually allow Poles to get it before Germany could. OTL Romania mobilized even in March 1939 against Hungary. With full France and Britain support I believe Hungary would be not threat either. Against Slovak-Czech internal border Germans need to basically attack frontally.


It was against the Germans alone. The Czechs are outnumbered 2-1 in manpower, 4-1 in combat aircraft, and 5-1 in tanks. Yes, the Czechs have a advantage in the quality of some of their tanks, but then so did the French in 1940. The German ground forces are actually better trained then they would be in 1939, since the continued expansion of the army steadily diluted the cadre of trained officers and NCOs, and the basis for their maneuver warfare doctrine has long been established. A months long resistance is fantasy, we're looking at weeks.

With Germans alone Czech lands would indeed fall in 3, 4 weeks max. Again plan called for retreat to Slovak-Czech borders.
Not sure with training of Wehrmacht in 1938. Didn’t they expanded to quickly already up to 1937 plus adding another four Corpses in 1938? According to Mitcham Germans faced in 1938 shortages in equipment, personnel, training personnel etc.

Again some examples from OTL:
In 1944 Slovak army (and not even its cream) which was basically trained by Czechoslovak manuals, and armed mostly with 1938 Czechoslovak weapons managed to defend central Slovakia for 2 months against Germans who had already 6 years of experience. Well few of Slovak soldiers and commanders had experience from eastern front too but Slovak army was much slower to implement it into training.

Germans on other side managed to slowly retreat through Slovakia from Dukla pass in September 1944 to April 1945, often stopping Soviets and Czechoslovaks attacks in blood.

Now in my opinion question is not if Czechoslovak army is able to defend and slowly retreat through Slovakia after Czech lands fell. Question is if there would be willingness of Czechoslovak politicians to continue!

Also what will be morale of Czech soldiers and what will be morale of Slovaks after Czech lands will be occupied? Slovak politicians, even majority of later ruling Slovak Hlinka’s People Party, which ran Slovak republic in years 1939-45 actually supported the defense at least in September 1938. Now in my opinion everything would depend if France and British would do something. I know OTL they didn’t get their shit together during 1939. Will they send supplies through Romania? Will they send at least some symbolic forces? Theoretically possible. Also will Soviets at least send volunteers and some fighter planes to Slovakia through Romania? (OTL if France was fully in Romania was showing willingness to allow supplies and volunteers as well as overflies, however Romania was more reluctant when France showed not willingness to do something.

Also proportionally more Czechoslovak soldiers would retreat to neutral Poland or if situation went really sour to allied Romania with their equipment, similarly to Polish retreat to Romania and Hungary.


All of that certainly improves their chances of not collapsing completely, but not collapsing completely is not the same as avoiding a terrible, long, bloody, and devastating conflict.
And they didn’t avoid it anyway.

And that’s why many wonder Benes after all was not such a bad politician.
On other side, 360 000 Czechoslovak citizens died during war. Many of them in KL without firing a shot. Slovakia and Moravia was ravaged by fighting in 1944 and 1945 anyway. Many towns and factories in Czech lands were bombed. That’s why many others are thinking how much worst it could be then OTL?

And at least some of the Czech industry will be captured intact. It's proximity to the border does not leave much time for demolitions to be carried out once the defenses are breached.
Some would be. However how much. To sabotage artillery production only some vital parts need to be destroyed. To sabotage or at least slow production of new LT-38 tank just some blue prints burnt.
Anyway for example Skoda evacuated parts of its production to Slovak Dubnica nad Vahom (artillery). Zbrojovka Brno was evacuated to Povazska Bystrica. Evacuated to Slovakia already was Czechoslovak gold, Czech crown jewels, war supplies etc. According to some sources more of war production was evacuated to Slovakia. I know Avia was preparing facilities in western Slovakia, how far they got I am not sure. Very likely not enough was done. After all Czechoslovakia was not Soviet union or Nazi Germany.

Poland's doomed if the Germans come after them regardless, unless the Soviets or French come to their aid (we know from OTL that the latter won't happen, but who knows about the former). The resource disparity is too great.

Disparity is great but question is would Nazi Germany attack Poland if full war started over Czechoslovakia in 1938 instead of over Poland in 1939?
 
Some buddies and I were having a discussion over what would happen if World War 2 were to breakout over the Munich Crisis and the Sudetenland. I think that its a pretty poor situation for Germany to be in having to fight a two fronted war against the Czechs, Poland, Britain, and France. The Soviets we all agreed would sit out seeing as how they have the most to gain from a beat up Germany, Poland, and Czechoslovakia.

What do you guys think?
Was thinking before about this but didn't had time to log on my PC to look for some information.
Biggest problem is to make France to honor it's alliance. Many times it was mentioned France and British felt their air force in not match for Nazis and needed time to rebuilt.

On other side Benes as Foreign Minister sometimes in 1932 after some return from disarmament conference said crisis will come sometimes in 1937 and Czechoslovakia has to be ready. Money were allocated however some of them went not right direction and according to some articles I read Czechoslovakia lost at least 2 years by considering what Army will need.

So let say as Air attack scare was big at the time, Czechoslovakia will invest more into fighters and AA. To get money for more fighter planes is pretty easy.

OTL Czechoslovakia put Kc - Koruna Ceskoslovenska (Czechoslovak Kron)

River Monitor (Danube) President Masaryk - 6 992 600 Kc = 245 354 $

Aero (Bloch) MB-200 73 pcs x 2.3 miliona Kc = 5 891 228 $

Tupolev SB-2 61 pcs x 285 000 rublov = 3 477 000 $


Total = 6 136 582

While Czechoslovakia was preparing its Avia B-35 (B-135) which proved while tested by Germans pretty even match for Bf-109 even with weak engine as advanced 1000 HP was not ready yet. Let stay with this OTL (even if 2 years were not lost...) and not to push development. So Czechoslovakia decide to buy abroad. However what was easily available for grab at the time? Nothing much. Hurricanes wouldn't be for sale, MS-406 production didn't even started, first P-36s entered service in US Army only in April 1936.
OTL Czehoslovakia bought some 61 SB-2s from Soviets. So let say this is dropped as bigger concern is to defend Air Space, protect troops movement etc. Only modern fighter plane available at bigger amounts at that time was I-16 in my opinion. If you got others ideas lets come with them. ;)
Cost of improved I-16 Type 10 at the time was

I-16 - 90 000 rubles = 18 000 $


Kc dollar exchange rate was: 28.5 Kc for 1 $
Ruble dollar exchange rate was: 5 rubles for 1 $

If Czechoslovakia dropped Aero (Bloch) MB-200 which were obsolete already when manufacturing right were obtained, and didn't built river monitor for Danube flotilla (waste of resources in my opinion).
Czechoslovakia could get at least 340 Polikarpovs I-16.

If even modernization of bomber forces is dropped and Czechoslovakia would really on some 270 Letovs S-328 and Aeros A-100 biplanes for tactical bombing (at least S-letov S-328 did relatively well even in August-October 1944 while supporting Slovak troops against Germans) we can get additional 193 I-16.
That's total of 533 modern (at that time) Polikarpov I-16s

Czechoslovakia had in 1938 some 370 B-534 available. So total fighter strengths (all more or less modern) would be some 903.
How would much stronger Czechoslovak fighter force influence France in its decision.


However I was thinking on one more event. Czechoslovakia mobilized on 23rd September on French advice. France partially next day. However during September 23rd some SS and SA crossed in Czechoslovakia in support of SdF (Sudetendeutsche freikorps).
So what if Czechoslovakia in order to avoid pressure from its ally France declared itself attacked by Nazi Germany and declared war!
 
Polikarpov I-16 in Czechoslovak markings. September 1938

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The Oster Conspiracy was probably a pipe dream.

This was very interesting indeed. It definitely casts the confident assumption I generally see on these forums that Hitler would be overthrown if the Rhineland/Anschluss/Sudeten Crisis had started a war in a different light.

OTL Czehoslovakia bought some 61 SB-2s from Soviets. So let say this is dropped as bigger concern is to defend Air Space, protect troops movement etc. Only modern fighter plane available at bigger amounts at that time was I-16 in my opinion. If you got others ideas lets come with them.

I wonder what effects it would have for the Soviets to have more cash from selling the Czechoslovaks more weapons?

fasquardon
 
I wonder what effects it would have for the Soviets to have more cash from selling the Czechoslovaks more weapons?
Not big I guess. I went with assumption Aero MB-200 would be biggest saving for Czechoslovakia. Some 6.1 mil dollars. Not little but not to much either.

However if you want to prop Soviets more with Czechoslovak money. Let say they will start to spend like crazy 90 t of gold from its gold reserves. Planes, vehicles, tanks, AA artillery. ;)
 
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