Hmmm...I didn't know that.
Still, those comments were also made along with comments about how Poland was "a land of Jews and half-breeds" who supposedly love the knout.
One can still thing V.S. a hero and acknowledge he had feet of clay.
WI: Operation Valkyrie
- Thread starter galileo-034
- Start date
Hmmm...I didn't know that.
Still, those comments were also made along with comments about how Poland was "a land of Jews and half-breeds" who supposedly love the knout.
One can still thing V.S. a hero and acknowledge he had feet of clay.
What are some of the anti-Semitic FDR quotes and what is the context?
Lindbergh is widely branded an anti-Semite, but if you read the entirety of the "British, Jewish, and Roosevelt administration" speech, he's mostly critical of FDR.
(He said it would be a tragedy if Britain were to fall but he said Britain's wars are not necessarily America's and although he denounced Hitler's treatment of Jews, he said if American Jews were seen as too pro-war, they would risk an anti-Semitic backlash. FDR is the one who really gets it.)
Undermining the notion there was a real resistance to Hitler's policies in Germany is key for those who support the notion that all Germany society is collectively guilty for the Final Solution. For quite sometime the Allied controlled press in Germany refused to even bring up Valkyrie because it undermined their effort to promote the notion all Germans were collectively guilty for the Nazi crimes.
BlairWitch749
Banned
to clarify some common misconceptions in any situation where someone is trying to turn elements of the army and or the ss against the government when hitler is still alive:
every single enlisted man, nco and officer had taken a personal oath of loyalty to hitler personally, and it was something taken very seriously (military people are big into honor)... there is no way without massive (manstein changes the world esque) POD's that your average landser would turn his hand against the state
Rommel in 1944 for all his propaganda and fame could only count on two divisions with absolute certainty if he was to give such an order; the 21st panzer and the panzer lehr, where a large number of the nco's junior and senior officers where old hands of his from africa... two divisions, 1000 miles from the decisive point isn't much for the leadership
In a situation where Hitler dies, it turns into a really confused free for all... the actual plotters where horribly disorganized and not nearly ruthless enough to get the job done.
I wouldn't worry about the SS, their field divisions where subordinated to the army and didn't have leadership capable of launching assaults on the state or on the heer
the big threat is guderian... the home army is a joke... hitler thought so little of their combat ability that they where not used to plug the massive hole in the front from bagration or at falaise... olbricht outside of his initial orders held almost no special sway over those men OR their officers
Guderian on the other hand, was the father figure for the panzerwaffe, and had command of all panzerwaffe training units, including the large armored school at potsdam where many of the officers where cronies of his
he would move ruthlessly and effectively, using the armor to overawe the local populace and the home army... he would court the eastern marshals; model and schoerner where close personal friends of his
the west might be problematic since kluge hated him, however, runstedt and guderian had a working relationship and guderian and rommel, despite disagreements could work together
every single enlisted man, nco and officer had taken a personal oath of loyalty to hitler personally, and it was something taken very seriously (military people are big into honor)... there is no way without massive (manstein changes the world esque) POD's that your average landser would turn his hand against the state
Rommel in 1944 for all his propaganda and fame could only count on two divisions with absolute certainty if he was to give such an order; the 21st panzer and the panzer lehr, where a large number of the nco's junior and senior officers where old hands of his from africa... two divisions, 1000 miles from the decisive point isn't much for the leadership
In a situation where Hitler dies, it turns into a really confused free for all... the actual plotters where horribly disorganized and not nearly ruthless enough to get the job done.
I wouldn't worry about the SS, their field divisions where subordinated to the army and didn't have leadership capable of launching assaults on the state or on the heer
the big threat is guderian... the home army is a joke... hitler thought so little of their combat ability that they where not used to plug the massive hole in the front from bagration or at falaise... olbricht outside of his initial orders held almost no special sway over those men OR their officers
Guderian on the other hand, was the father figure for the panzerwaffe, and had command of all panzerwaffe training units, including the large armored school at potsdam where many of the officers where cronies of his
he would move ruthlessly and effectively, using the armor to overawe the local populace and the home army... he would court the eastern marshals; model and schoerner where close personal friends of his
the west might be problematic since kluge hated him, however, runstedt and guderian had a working relationship and guderian and rommel, despite disagreements could work together
Typo
Banned
Basically yes, BlairWitch is right, it's not Wehrmacht join plotters and then shoots down SS in civil war, it's actual going to depend highly on how the politics of the army, the SS and the party goes, if Hitler dies a lot depend on a few key personalities: Guderian, Himmler, Model etc to decide everything. Like if Himmler decides to back the plotters (which he might) for instance the whole thing might work.
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Typo
Banned
Dude, this has already being pointed out, the point of a coup isn't to instigate a civil war, if the Heer has to open fire on the SS then the coup has failed regardless of who wins. Your question is really irrelevant because of you seem to fundamentally lack differentiating between a coup and a civil war.
Blairwitch's theory is quite interesting. When I ponder what might have happened if Hitler was killed but the plotters weren't able to seize control, I usually think of Himmler taking over (a la "The Fox on the Rhine").
Guderian taking over is something I'd never even thought of.
Guderian taking over is something I'd never even thought of.
Here's the Wiki describing what happened:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20_July_plot
Here's a comparison between what actually happened and the film Valkyrie
http://www.acepilots.com/ww2/july-20-plot-valkyrie.html
Typo
Banned
As someone who was fascinated by the July 20th Coup attempt I found the wiki article accurate but lacking in detail. Rise and Fall of the Third Reich does a far better job of describing it.
The coup (such as it was) only lased as long (a few hours) as it did because there was no clear idea of what was going on in and outside of Berlin. It did not unfold successfully in fact it was characterised by a degree of slap-stick screw-ups and bad planning that you wonder just what the hell they were thinking. Their ability to keep up the presence of being loyal to the Nazi regime was shaky from the start and once it is gone the plotters were doomed (as many suspected themselves).
Whatever happens the Heer will protect the Nazi regime (even if they retch a little whilst saying Heil Goring
). Many people grossly underestimate the degree to which complicity in war-crimes, promotion & honours, estates and direct cash-bribes from Hitler’s slush funds had permeated the Heer and the actual level of support for Nazism and its ideals there was in the ranks and officer corps.The point about the SS in Paris is largely irrelevant, those were desk-bound and mostly lightly armed/unarmed men. Had coup supporting forces disarmed the SS Hitler Jungend or Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler I’d be impressed as things stand OTL…meh.
Lastly it is also worth noting that most German solders and citizenry were relived that Hitler survived and scorned the plotters as traitors. And in 1944-5 showed no real desire to surrender to anyone least of all the Anglo-Americans.
The results of a successful coup, though very unlikely, could be disturbing.
Now it is not the Nazis but these betrayers who get to sign the unconditional surrender while millions of Germans rant about losing another war due to a stab in the back.
Now it is not the Nazis but these betrayers who get to sign the unconditional surrender while millions of Germans rant about losing another war due to a stab in the back.
They wouldn’t get that far, the army will support the Nazi regime and thus whoever succeeds Hitler. That should mean Goring due to his being ‘’legally’’ next-in-line. Through I suspect it’d be more a ‘’collective leadership’’ between Goring, Bormann, Himmler and Goebbles. People also overestimate Himmler’s desire and ability to seize power for himself so hwe has little chance of seizing (or being given) total power.
Now without Hitler’s dominating personality, Nazi factionalism and tensions from SS-Heer tribalism could get very ugly, but I don’t see the German population in general or army in particular being any more inclined to surrender. It’s worth noting the OTL attitudes and comments of the OTL Heer high-command. And morale in the Heer was surprisingly high even in late 1944, with their general attitude being a sort of fatalistic determination not hopeless despair.
In the long-term any ''stab-in-the-back myth'' would derive from those saying if Hitler had lived he’d have turned things around with a sudden bold-stroke like he had in the past.
Credible or not, unrepentent Nazis will point to the new weapons coming up and the post-war breakdown in Soviet-Western relations as proof that all Hitler needed was a little more time and millions of Germans, conquered and under foreign occupation, will be willing to believe.
Your main premise, that the coup was doomed to fail, is spot on.
Your main premise, that the coup was doomed to fail, is spot on.
BlairWitch749
Banned
Goering and Himmler had fallen out considerably, and both would see each other as a threat... a coup was just attempted, paranoia is going to be in high swing, Goering would have to squash the hardcore elements of the party to assure he has control of the state
Markus
Banned
Whatever happens the Heer will protect the Nazi regime (even if they retch a little whilst saying Heil Goring
And how do you explain the fact the the coup did actually work until word got out Hitler survived, that even actual Nazis followed the plotter´s orders until Hitler countermanded them?
WTF? The Hitlerjugend and LSSAH divisions were being cut into pieces in Normandy!
Maybe you could tell us what combat troops the SS had in or near Berlin?
Hardly! In 1918 Germany had just defeated Romania and Russia and made big gains in the west. In mid-1944 Germany had been defeated in the east, south, west, the air and the Atlantic again and again for well over a year.
BlairWitch749
Banned
Himmler taking over is more or less impossible (forgetting his personality defects)... Himmler's greatest assets where two; command of the police in the gestapo and the SD AND being at the top of the food chain for the waffen SS
I'll address the Waffen SS first
The Waffen SS from its first service in Poland was ALWAYS subordinated to a Heer formation and took their orders from someone in grey, not in black. Dietrich, Steiner and Hausser who where the main field leadership of the Waffen SS where not crazy ass hardcore nazi's who would just jump to a call from Himmler to start icing people in the heer whom they had served side by side with for 5 years. Also the Waffen SS's strongest units where embroiled in blood battles in the east and west and couldn't exactly be pulled off the line to form a back bone for a new Himmler government
On the police... a lot of the SD and gestapo where just the scum of humanity, little more than schoolyard bullies with the power of the state behind them... against any type of actual military formation, they would melt away; quickly
Guderian, when he was recalled after Stalingrad was given command of all mobile formations in the heer (technically) AND all training formations for the panzer waffe (actually)... there where large armored schools inside Germany, many of their staff where former NCO's and staff officer's to Guderian's previous commands and where intensely loyal to him... his name had pretty much unlimited credit in the panzerwaffe; its a lot more likely that the panzer instructors at potsdam would have been willing to install their boss in power, than the waffen ss installing theres OR the police having the ability to sustain Himmler in power
Markus, in late 1918 Germany was losing on all fronts, had lost all three allies which freed up powerful new allied forces and threatened more fronts for Germany while all they could do to slow the Allied advance was to abandon most of the occupied territory in the west with vast material along with several divisions of men left to delay the Allied advance.
This situation did not prevent millions of Germans after WWI from believing they were winning until the dolchstoss.
This situation did not prevent millions of Germans after WWI from believing they were winning until the dolchstoss.