WI: Operation Valkyrie

[Uriel]

What were the eastern SS men going to do?
Open huge gaps in the front while trying to find a transport to Berlin?
Fire on the next Wehrmacht Officer they encounter?

With the transports and communications they had at that time it would have been all over before they had organized and gotten anywhere near Berlin.

And there is the small problem that starting a civil war could very well led to regional collapse of the front and everybody getting killed/captured by the Russians.
And the fact they were outnummberd everywere.
And that many Waffen SS-men were foreign volunteers with little interest in who ruled Germany .

You think trice before you do anything in that situation.

If Himmler would have staged a countercoup he would have to use the men he allready had in/near the larger cities.

 

[Eurofed]

The anti-Valkyrie people make the good argument that the SS in Paris weren't as numerous and hardened as those on the Eastern Front.

THEY might be problematic.

But in the time span when it looked like Hitler was dead and the Valkyrie guys were in charge, they did nothing to oppose them. Again, I quite share the opinion that if Wehrmacht generals of the Eastern front start making unhappy rumors, the Valkyrie guys may have serious problems.

But all available evidence seems to indicate that as long as it seems like the Heer leadership is providing a sufficiently united front (and I agree it is a big IF) and spin the line "Hitler is dead by hand of SS-NSDAP radicals, please stand back while the army restores order" (and I see much less trouble with this) to post-Hitler Germany, pretty much everyone, including the vast majority of the Waffen-SS, shall obey them.

 

[Eurofed]

What were the eastern SS men going to do?
Open huge gaps in the front while trying to find a transport to Berlin?
Fire on the next Wehrmacht Officer they encounter?

With the transports and communications they had at that time it would have been all over before they had organized and gotten anywhere near Berlin.

And there is the small problem that starting a civil war could very well led to regional collapse of the front and everybody getting killed/captured by the Russians.
And the fact they were outnummberd everywere.
And that many Waffen SS-men were foreign volunteers with little interest in who ruled Germany .

You think trice before you do anything in that situation.

If Himmler would have staged a countercoup he would have to use the men he allready had in/near the larger cities.

Not to mention that since the Valkyrie guys are going to spin the line that Hitler was killed by SS-NSDAP radicals, an SS countercoup attempt may easily look like major validation of that.

 

[jmc247]

Remember, Hitler was the one with all the charismatic authority in the Nazi regime. After him, the officer corps was the second most universally respected authority in Germany. No other NSDAP bigwig could remotely match it by leagues.

Murdering Caesar with a knife in the back and then trying nicely to take over the Roman state didn't exactly work out too well for those in the Senate. Military coups have a far better chance of working if they are quick and upfront with their actions and use force decisively against the regime and its loyalists.

"After the 20th July plot Rommel commented to his family and various officers that 'Stauffenberg had bungled it and a front-line soldier would have finished Hitler off.'"

 

[Eurofed]

"After the 20th July plot Rommel commented to his family and various officers that 'Stauffenberg had bungled it and a front-line soldier would have finished Hitler off.'"

Yeah, but we are assuming that Hitler is indeed dead, and that changes everything.

 

[Markus]

Of course there's a huge deal of apologist in the whole thing which basically implied that the whole National Socialism thing was pretty much the sole responsibility of Hitler of and would have being alright if you just get Hitler out of the picture.


But hey, do feel free to insult other people on how they don't know shit.

Are these requests to be put on my "ignore list"?

 

[MerryPrankster]

Murdering Caesar with a knife in the back and then trying nicely to take over the Roman state didn't exactly work out too well for those in the Senate. Military coups have a far better chance of working if they are quick and upfront with their actions and use force decisively against the regime and its loyalists.

The "Liberators" publicized their deeds in hopes the people would like them for it--and it didn't work out.

The point of Valkyrie was to kill Hitler and then order the German soldiers to avenge their beloved leader's death. The whole situation would have fallen apart if they were upfront--when it was revealed Hitler was still alive, it DID.

 

[Markus]

The anti-Valkyrie people make the good argument that the SS in Paris weren't as numerous and hardened as those on the Eastern Front.

THEY might be problematic.

Well, those on the Eastern Front were not anywhere near Germany and that´s were success or failure of the coup would be decided.

And Typo has still not answered what forces the SS had inside Germany and near Berlin that were capable of defeating the Ersatzheer. Like he ignored the fact that even a hardcore Nazi like Maj. Remer was following the orders by Ersatzheer HQ until Hitler countermanded his orders.

 

[MerryPrankster]

Well, those on the Eastern Front were not anywhere near Germany and that´s were success or failure of the coup would be decided.

Yes, but those troops could make trouble.

Flying detachments from Poland and the Baltics to Berlin could be done without weakening the front overmuch, especially if it's done quickly and in the midst of the confusion after the death of Hitler.

Not necessarily saying it's inevitable--the impression I've got of most of the anti-Valkyrie crowd is that they have the conclusion it MUST fail and look for reasons to justify it--but one must examine every possibility.

 

[jmc247]

Yeah, but we are assuming that Hitler is indeed dead, and that changes everything.

If they acted decisively to get rid of the rest of the Nazi big wigs and take over the radio then they could have pulled it off. But, their tepid actions after the bombing tend to point against that occuring.

Brutus could have won if he was willing to desively act against Marc Anthony and the rest of Caesar's main supporters in Rome. He acted tepidly and that allowed the shock Romans had over the actions to turn to anger and they rallied around Anthony and burned down the Senate house and drove the Senators who killed Caesar from Rome.

The same is true in Germany. The plotters had a short window to get control of the media and get rid of Hitler's loyalists in Berlin if they didn't act in that window they would have failed and the German people would have rallied around Himmler or someone else close to Hitler.

The point of Valkyrie was to kill Hitler and then order the German soldiers to avenge their beloved leader's death. The whole situation would have fallen apart if they were upfront--when it was revealed Hitler was still alive, it DID.

In order to do that they would have had to gain control of the media before the SS and given their tepid response that doesn't seem likely.

 

[Markus]

Flying detachments from Poland and the Baltics to Berlin could be done without weakening the front overmuch, especially if it's done quickly and in the midst of the confusion after the death of Hitler.

Ok, but you need both relatively powerful SS units and transportation and the two need to be near each other.

If the SS had a plan for a counter coup in the drawer, Valkyrie might have been doomed even with Hitler dead but they did not. They were totally clueless making Ersatzheer the "one eyed among the blind". One eyed who got a better vison once von Stauffenberg arrived at the HQ I like to add.

 

[Eurofed]

.
Not necessarily saying it's inevitable--the impression I've got of most of the anti-Valkyrie crowd is that they have the conclusion it MUST fail and look for reasons to justify it--but one must examine every possibility.

This is the most strong impression I have developed long since about the anti-Valkyrie crowd.

 

[jmc247]

Not necessarily saying it's inevitable--the impression I've got of most of the anti-Valkyrie crowd is that they have the conclusion it MUST fail and look for reasons to justify it--but one must examine every possibility.

One such person told me that the entire Germany military including the likes of Stauffenberg had made their bed in fighting for Hitler and therefore were all collectively guilty of the crimes of the Nazis and trying to kill Hitler was in the end just a bunch of Nazis trying to save their own skin and excuse the fact they are just as responsable for the Holocaust as every other German of the era who fought for the Nazis.

 

[Markus]

One such person told me that the entire Germany military including the likes of Stauffenberg had made their bed in fighting for Hitler and therefore were all collectively guilty of the crimes of the Nazis and trying to kill Hitler was in the end just a bunch of Nazis trying to save their own skin and excuse the fact they are just as responsable for the Holocaust as every other German of the era who fought for the Nazis.

No doubt a most well informed member of AH.com.

 

[Eurofed]

One such person told me that the entire Germany military including the likes of Stauffenberg had made their bed in fighting for Hitler and therefore were all collectively guilty of the crimes of the Nazis and trying to kill Hitler was in the end just a bunch of Nazis trying to save their own skin and excuse the fact they are just as responsable for the Holocaust as every other German of the era who fought for the Nazis.

That kind of people never seems to notice that to uphold collective responsibility is precisely the first, key step on the path to atrocities. After that, it just becomes an issue of deciding how much brutality the "guilty" group "deserves", and rationalizations are so easy to come up.

 

[jmc247]

No doubt a most well informed member of AH.com.

Actually it wasn't on AH, but it was after the Valkyrie film came out on a discussion of it.

This mindset does pervade alot of places and its based in no small part on the view that the entire German military were all Nazi Party members. I mean the media continues this notion even today. How often is Rommel called by the media a Nazi general or Nazi Field Marshal in articles? All the time, hell they did it in the NY Times in talking about Libya over the years just today. This is inspite of the fact he made clear time and time again he wasn't a member of the Nazi party.

Now how often does the media use the term Communist Field Marshal Zhukov to discribe him? Extremely rarely if ever.

Double standard? I would certainly say so.

 

[MerryPrankster]

That kind of people never seems to notice that to uphold collective responsibility is precisely the first, key step on the path to atrocities. After that, it just becomes an issue of deciding how much brutality the "guilty" group "deserves", and rationalizations are so easy to come up.

Seconded.

I did some reading about "Jewish Bolshevism" (there's actually a Wikipedia article on the trope) and I remember a quote that the Jewish Communists like Trotsky were renegades disavowed by the wider Jewish community and yet anti-Semites blamed all the Jews for them.

Now, V.S. at the very least was a tool who didn't like Poles (as one of the Hurganoids pointed out) and was entirely cool with Polish POWs being used as agricultural labor, so he's not an innocent to the degree that a common Jew beaten to death by some mob convinced that all Jews are Communists would be. And Hitler did have a lot of popular legitimacy.

That being said, collective guilt isn't cool.

 

[Markus]

Now, V.S. at the very least was a tool who didn't like Poles (as one of the Hurganoids pointed out) and was entirely cool with Polish POWs being used as agricultural labor,

Just for the record, that was the total über-plum job for any POW. You were living and working on a farm, not in a camp with barbed wire and armed guards.

And he made these remarks about the Poles before Operation Barbarossa, when he was still loyal to the regime.

 

[Eurofed]

Now, V.S. at the very least was a tool who didn't like Poles (as one of the Hurganoids pointed out) and was entirely cool with Polish POWs being used as agricultural labor,

As usual, this fails to notice that some degree of racism was quite the mainstream in Western ruling elites and public opinion at large in the 1930s-1940s. Read about the antisemitic quotes of FDR, the opinion of Churchill about the Indians, and let's not start about Jim Crow. Yeah, so VS didn't like Poles, just like most of the Heer officer class. Unless someone can provide me proof that he did actively support the democidal things that Nazis did to Poles, that is no proof of responsibility for Nazi crimes in my book.

 

[Eurofed]

Just for the record, that was the total über-plum job for any POW. You were living and working on a farm, not in a camp with barbed wire and armed guards.

Yup, I seem to remember that even Axis PoWs were used by the Western Allies that way.