WI: 'Operation Market Garden' with reversed roles for the British & US Army

[Fuzzy Dunlop]

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As it says on the tin . . . . obviously you'd need to reverse the landings in Normandy for this to occur.

Play out Operation Market Garden with the roles of both the British and US Army reversed . . . . basically British Para's full in the roles of the 82nd & 101st US, while the US Army and Armoured Divisions take Arnhem and have replace XXX Corp.

How does the operation pan out?
What differences would a reversing of the British & US Armies make?
Would it succeed?
What failings would still occur, if any?

PS: Spolier Alert . . . . Both Armies cannot change the numbers or composition of their respective forces, they both have to work within the forces available at the time of the start of 'Market Garden'.

Much obliged!

 

[unclepatrick]

Did US radios work better then the British ones ?
Would the US listen to the Dutch resistance warning about German Panzers around Arnhem ?
Or pay attentions to the aerial photos of the same area?
Were US Airborne Troops able to carry US anti Tank stuff and did it work better then the British stuff?
Would the US Airborne Troops accept landing zones so far from the Bridge ?

 

[AlanJWhite]

At least The British Paras will actually obey orders and take the first two bridges on day one


unlike the US forces in OTL where both the 101 and 82 chose to waste time securing secondary objectives before attempting their key main targets

IOTL the 101sts failure delayed the armoured forces by 8 -12 hours because that bridge was destroyed

But that water was relatively narrow & the British sappers threw over Bailey bridges in the night
And the tankers made up time to reach the 82 on schedule late afternoon day 2
But the 82nd had not even attempted the key bridge over the Waal which was much wider.
They delayed all of day 1 despite having a complete battalion, rallied after a good drop & otherwise uncommitted
And there being only minimal Nazi guards on day 1.

By day2 of course the Nazis had blocked their side with reinforcements
It took 2 days to force that river and more to approach Arnhem from the south

And therefore the British at Arnhem itself
who had taken the far side of their bridge on day 1
(despite heavier than expected defenders)
were overrun before the tankers could possibly get there

OTL Market Garden failed because of American CFs
I see no reason for TTL to be any different unless the Americans do MUCH better

I wonder how Hollywood will spin that if they perform as badly as OTL

 

[DougM]

I don’t care who is doing what in the plan. The plan still sucked and won’t work.

 

[pierman]

Patton driving the armour foreward? No stopping at night? Enough of a difference?

 

[unclepatrick]

Patton driving the armour foreward? No stopping at night? Enough of a difference?

Going up a single road, it still going to be a mess.

 

[pierman]

But much more interesting with Patton

 

[cortz#9]

But much more interesting with Patton

I wonder how Patton would handle suffering a major defeat, would he make excuses like Montgomery?

 

[vl100butch]

Would the paratroopers go for the ferry at Driel, holding on to the position where pontoon bridges could be erected across the Rhine?

 

[marathag]

I wonder how Patton would handle suffering a major defeat, would he make excuses like Montgomery?

Excuses? Never. He meant to draw in the Germans, to destroy them....later.

 

[mattep74]

Did US radios work better then the British ones ?
Would the US listen to the Dutch resistance warning about German Panzers around Arnhem ?
Or pay attentions to the aerial photos of the same area?
Were US Airborne Troops able to carry US anti Tank stuff and did it work better then the British stuff?
Would the US Airborne Troops accept landing zones so far from the Bridge ?

USA seem to have trusted the resistance more than the British.

If it is the US airborne that is slated to take the Arnheim bridge, expect the 501st regiment to pull something out of it and major winters execute yet another plan that become part of West point.

 

[PMN1]

USA seem to have trusted the resistance more than the British.

If it is the US airborne that is slated to take the Arnheim bridge, expect the 501st regiment to pull something out of it and major winters execute yet another plan that become part of West point.

They also have this guy.....

 

[unclepatrick]

Can any one answer some questions about the Radios use by the British and the US?
I heard that they did not work in the wetter environment of Europe. (The supposedly worked find in North Africa )
I heard that they worked as designed but they did not have range to reach from the British landing zones to the Bridge.
I heard that they were sent into battle with the wrong crystals .
What is the real story behind the radios used in Market Garden?
Where the US radios any better or worst then the British ?

 

[bsmart]

View attachment 653517
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As it says on the tin . . . . obviously you'd need to reverse the landings in Normandy for this to occur.

.....

Much obliged!

I remember Reading years ago (I think it was in Eisenhowers Lieutenants) about the reason for the choice of beaches and therefor the paths of the armies across Europe. It all had to do with the training areas that had been assigned to the U.S. forces during the buildup phase in England. Because the American forces were put in Southwest England that slated them to go in on the right flank of the invasion and to occupy that position thrughout the campign. Otherwise at some point the logistics routes would have to be crossed causing all sorts of confusion. This also affected the postwar Occupation zones giving the U.K the heavily industrialized North German region and the Americans the less industrialized Southern German region. Some American diplomats fought about these assignments feeling the the U.K. arranged it so that they would get the more prosperous section of Germany

So the changing of the Invasion areas would throw a whole swarm of butterflies into the mix. The British (not the Americans) would be stuck in the hedgerows, The Americans would have the open land around Caen, the British would have Omaha beach to contend with. The big sweeping move of Operation Cobra would be a British operation (unless we have an American army staged behind the British to breakout and run while the British sing south and southeast. Once the Forces from Anvil/Dragoon join up the British would be squeezed between the two U.S. Army Groups from Switzerland to the North Sea. Now there are some 'what ifs for you.

And all it would take is for someone to decide once the U.S. Forces unload off the Queens (and other troop transports) in Northwestern ports they are to be housed in nearby encampments instead of being transported to Southwest England.

 

[AlanJWhite]

USA seem to have trusted the resistance more than the British.

If it is the US airborne that is slated to take the Arnheim bridge, expect the 501st regiment to pull something out of it and major winters execute yet another plan that become part of West point.

No chance ..
Both the 101 and 82 botched their tasks in Market in RL

Hollywood would be different of course

 

[Popcorn]

I remember Reading years ago (I think it was in Eisenhowers Lieutenants) about the reason for the choice of beaches and therefor the paths of the armies across Europe. It all had to do with the training areas that had been assigned to the U.S. forces during the buildup phase in England. Because the American forces were put in Southwest England that slated them to go in on the right flank of the invasion and to occupy that position thrughout the campign. Otherwise at some point the logistics routes would have to be crossed causing all sorts of confusion. This also affected the postwar Occupation zones giving the U.K the heavily industrialized North German region and the Americans the less industrialized Southern German region. Some American diplomats fought about these assignments feeling the the U.K. arranged it so that they would get the more prosperous section of Germany

So the changing of the Invasion areas would throw a whole swarm of butterflies into the mix. The British (not the Americans) would be stuck in the hedgerows, The Americans would have the open land around Caen, the British would have Omaha beach to contend with. The big sweeping move of Operation Cobra would be a British operation (unless we have an American army staged behind the British to breakout and run while the British sing south and southeast. Once the Forces from Anvil/Dragoon join up the British would be squeezed between the two U.S. Army Groups from Switzerland to the North Sea. Now there are some 'what ifs for you.

And all it would take is for someone to decide once the U.S. Forces unload off the Queens (and other troop transports) in Northwestern ports they are to be housed in nearby encampments instead of being transported to Southwest England.

If so, would Patton have done a better job going after Antwerp?

 

[marathag]

If so, would Patton have done a better job going after Antwerp?

Swapping armies around changes so much of the breakout, it's hard to say what the Germans would have left in August when planning would be set

 

[Aber]

If so, would Patton have done a better job going after Antwerp?

Probably not.

The British advance from the Seine to Brussels and Antwerp was faster than Patton (and didn't run out of fuel).

Patton was not great against fortifications (see the Lorraine campaign) so would have struggled with Breskens and Walcheren.

 

[Millsy]

If so, would Patton have done a better job going after Antwerp?

Nope he wouldn't have cleared the schedlt either without which capture of Antwerp is of limited use - and the British weren't slow in their advance to Antwerp

 

[Millsy]

Probably not.

The British advance from the Seine to Brussels and Antwerp was faster than Patton (and didn't run out of fuel).

Patton was not great against fortifications (see the Lorraine campaign) so would have struggled with Breskens and Walcheren.

Snap we must have been typing at same time 😀