WI the norse took over france and britain, and did not immediatly become french or anglish or catholic
WI: Norse France
- Thread starter bob123456789
- Start date
Easiest way is probably having Britain and France fall out of Roman hands before converting to christianity. But long-term very difficult unless some non-catholic entity springs up in the north, stronger arianism maybe?
The effects? North and South Europe becomes very divided, probably less developed north.
The effects? North and South Europe becomes very divided, probably less developed north.
JJohnson
Banned
It'd be a very interesting situation, language-wise.
At the most conservative, France will have a Romance-language with a much higher degree of Norse borrowings. Verbs like 'river' (to tear apart; to rive, rove, riven in English) would pop up, and they could end up boiling Œuges instead of Œuf. At the most liberal, we could see French altered such that it would pronounce the ends of words like Spanish, have some form of dental-past-tense (ouvrir, ouvride, j'ave ouvrid), a more substantive 'to have' (j'ave, tu haves, il/elle ave, nous havons, vous havez, ils/ellles havent), and so on.
In England, with a more Norse France, it would possibly give us an English as inflected as Dutch is today and with far more Germanic root words, especially if William the Conquerer retains a Norse language amongst the elites and him and still tries to conquer them. If not, then there's be a dialect continuum between England and France similar to that of Dutch/Low Saxon today.
At the most conservative, France will have a Romance-language with a much higher degree of Norse borrowings. Verbs like 'river' (to tear apart; to rive, rove, riven in English) would pop up, and they could end up boiling Œuges instead of Œuf. At the most liberal, we could see French altered such that it would pronounce the ends of words like Spanish, have some form of dental-past-tense (ouvrir, ouvride, j'ave ouvrid), a more substantive 'to have' (j'ave, tu haves, il/elle ave, nous havons, vous havez, ils/ellles havent), and so on.
In England, with a more Norse France, it would possibly give us an English as inflected as Dutch is today and with far more Germanic root words, especially if William the Conquerer retains a Norse language amongst the elites and him and still tries to conquer them. If not, then there's be a dialect continuum between England and France similar to that of Dutch/Low Saxon today.
Although it's fun to imagine a mixed Franco-Norse language such as you suggest, it almost certainly would not happen outsidr ASB-ish intervention. It would require not just a Norse conquest of France but a very massive Scandinavian immigration into large parts of the country, and a long period of bilingualism and intermarriage. I doubt that Scandinavia has the population to achieve it. Old French and Norse are from different branches of Indo European; the closest parallels OTL, the earlier Frankish conquest of Gaul and the Norman conquest of England resulted in substantial borrowing of vocabulary, true, but almost no grammatical influence. Similarly with the slavs and Romanian. Old English-Norse is different - the two languages were of the same branch and still fairly close to each other such that a sort of merger was possible.
I think what's more likely to happen in France is similar to the Varangians in Rus. You're going to get a ruling dynasty of Norse origins, whether Danish or Norwegian I don't know (the Rolofids or something?), an aristocracy predominantly Norse in origin, and lots of (latinised) Norse names in use, but limited effects on people lower down the scale, except that feudalism may develop differently from OTL. At some point they're going to have to convert to Christianity, if they want to secure their position.
'Mixed' languages do occur, and very interesting they are too from a linguistic point of view. But they only happen in very specific circumstances.
You may need the Romans to never conquer Gaul, so that the Gallic civilization continues and the Norse decide their own is superior.
OTL France basically maintained Roman civilization and this was very prestigious to outsiders. The Franks and Vikings found it attractive and eventually assimilated.
OTL France basically maintained Roman civilization and this was very prestigious to outsiders. The Franks and Vikings found it attractive and eventually assimilated.
Ok the main problems are lack of population. Why dont we also give thema a MASSIVE population boost, so the number of migrating vikings outnumbers the native french. Slightly ASB
FillyofDelphi
Banned
It kind of is. Scandinavia iotl was ALREADY seeing a population boom that was pushing carrying capacity of the region during the Viking Age, so you need to fiddle with the ariability of Norse lands in order to have them fed prior to the period of external conquest. France is just a more fertile area, full stop, and can win most population races with the north
Actually a lot of the simplification of Old English seems to have started following the Danelaw rather than the Conquest.
Strip out the French and English resembles what happened to Middle Dutch to become Afrikaans.
If Rollo didn't settle for the lands in modern day Normandy and instead ousted Charles the Fat and made himself overlord of Paris, and France as a whole, could there be a massive influx of Norse settlers coming into France once they hear how fertile and wealthy the lands truly are? That's about the most likely scenario I can think of, and I think the chances would be much higher that Rollo's Norsemen simply assimilate before too long, except instead of just controlling Normandy, they also control much of the Seine through Paris, the Ilê-de-France, and possibly beyond.
Chungus Maximus
Banned
Wasn’t France originally Germanic/Frankish, but then got Romanized in early Medieval times?
jocay
Banned
No. Gaul was Romanized already when the Franks came into the scene. The Franks themselves were pseudo-Romanized, having lived in imperial lands for two centuries prior to the Merovingians dispatching Sygarius. In any case, the Normans would likely follow their Frankish predecessors.
Chungus Maximus
Banned
Then where did French people get their NW European genetic admixture from?
They have a lot more of it than other Romance Speakers (Iberians and Italians. Romanians are genetically pretty similar to their neighbors, despite their Romance language)
I’m guessing their NW European admixtures come from the fact that Northern France lies in NW Europe.
Deleted member 114175
If the Franks fracture permanently into pieces at least as small as Neustria, Aquitaine, and Austrasia, and are divided between several frontiers like an Umayyad-raided region, a Norse-raided region in the north, Slavic or Magyar raids in the east, then maybe it's possible that Norse culture in France, starting in Normandy, could appear and expand slowly into the no man's land. It would be easier too if the pagan Saxons defeated Charlemagne's invasion.
It was originally Celtic (Gaulish) and then became Romanized after the Romans conquered it. The Franks were Germanic but they were just a small ruling class.
IIRC, France's population was like a third of the whole of Europe at that time, so even then, I'm not sure it would be enough.
Looking at the Cauchois dialect (the language spoken in the Pays de Caux, one of the areas of Normandy most heavily settled by the Nords), it's very similar to modern French and there's little word borrowing from Norse. In the event that Rollon somehow conquer most of France (which sounds dramatically unlikely), the situation would probably be similar. I expect Norse influence would be very thin.
To be clear, you also are speaking only of the actual French regions. The chances of a Norse speaking group affecting the linguistic makeup of the Occitan or Arpitan is extremely unlikely.