WI: No Dwight Eisenhower?

The POD? Let's say he trips and hits a landmine in WW1 and dies as a result.

Butterflies notwithstanding, D Day might end up being at the helm of either Marshall or Patton, which could change the entire strategy. Either of them could pick up the war hero label and be a lock for President.
 
I had toyed with the idea of Ike not a presidential candidate in 1952. That leaves Taft as a very likely Republican nominiee. Were he elected items like the interstate highways would not be pushed as hard. Imagine the US without Federal funds for highways construction and maintenance. He had a tough anti Union stance, which might lessen the wages of the 1950s & 60s. I dont know what his attitude for civil rights & race relations was. Possibly no Federal intervention in 'states business' ?

Truman reelected in 1952 is a lot easier to sort out, tho a conservative swing in Congress might occur.

I seriously doubt either Marshal or Patton had the personality or skills to gain a nomination. Doubt Marshall had the desire or the political connections. He turned off a lot of politicians during his years as CoS and Sec. Army. MacArthur would have nailed the Republican nomination in 52 if flashy personalities were not a problem.

Otherwise there are a lot of now forgotten politicians who would have been sniffing about had either Taft or Truman been unsuitable.
 
I had toyed with the idea of Ike not a presidential candidate in 1952. That leaves Taft as a very likely Republican nominiee. Were he elected items like the interstate highways would not be pushed as hard. Imagine the US without Federal funds for highways construction and maintenance. He had a tough anti Union stance, which might lessen the wages of the 1950s & 60s. I dont know what his attitude for civil rights & race relations was. Possibly no Federal intervention in 'states business' ?

Truman reelected in 1952 is a lot easier to sort out, tho a conservative swing in Congress might occur.

I seriously doubt either Marshal or Patton had the personality or skills to gain a nomination. Doubt Marshall had the desire or the political connections. He turned off a lot of politicians during his years as CoS and Sec. Army. MacArthur would have nailed the Republican nomination in 52 if flashy personalities were not a problem.

Otherwise there are a lot of now forgotten politicians who would have been sniffing about had either Taft or Truman been unsuitable.

I think highways would have come at some point, though it could have been delayed. But yes, I see Taft as the inevitable GOP Nominee for President in 1952--- IDK if he would win the general election, but if he does your assumptions seem relatively true. Could Truman even get the nomination in 1952? Even without Ike, I don't know that he'd run/win the nomination.
 

Stolengood

Banned
I don't see Taft winning in '52, even against Truman. However, I think the only way Truman gets the nomination in '52 is if Korea is either butterflied or goes much, MUCH better than it did IOTL.
 
I don't see Taft winning in '52, even against Truman. However, I think the only way Truman gets the nomination in '52 is if Korea is either butterflied or goes much, MUCH better than it did IOTL.

I don't see how with the Lack of Eisenhower would make it the same as OTL.
 
Ike actually never was on the frontline in any war ever, he was a planner. George Marshall is Supreme Allied Commander. From there on, we can't be sure but Taft is going to be the Republican nominee in '52.
 
Eisenhower was in the US throughout World War I, working on tank development so an accidental death amidst moving machinery, experimental explosives, engine fires and fueling accidents, would be a very reasonable POD.

The U.S. had hundreds of commanders, over 300 ahead of Ike in seniority in 1939, and much of the campaigns Eisenhower's credited with were far more the work of George Marshall (who had front line experience in the Phillipines War and World War I France where he quickly became General Pershing's right hand man/tactical planner.) Marshall very nearly headed the Normandy Invasion directly, the job was his and he really did want that one but his personal sense of duty to running the whole war kept him from it since he could literally assign himself to the job and would have been gleefully accepted by the British commanders he'd already been working closely with for 5 years already then. A 1943 Normandy Invasion and not a North African or Italian campaign are considerably more likely with Marshall directly in charge as that's where he wanted to start rather than the sideshows/diversions Churchill so fancied. Troop trainer Omar Bradley or Handy from Plans (Eisenhower's rising point) might step up, Patton would have a larger role and his understanding of terrain and logistics would get more play while his media frenzy problems that occurred in North Africa and Sicily would be avoided or postponed, Marshall was a friend and protector of George's from 1918 or so. Joseph Stillwell, Alexander Patch, Lucian Truscott, Walter Krueger, Mark Clark, Courtney Hodges, Walter Bedell Smith, there was an unusual amount of command talent that could have done as well or better in Ike's military roles. The defects in American diplomatic capacities in London and DC would have been more apparent with replacements more likely.

Ike's background in managing life or death complexities, infrastructure, logistics, the Pacific (Phillipines service under MacArthur in the 1930's), Europe, with Stalin, DeGaulle, the British Empire, post-war Europe, implementing innovations, the American Midwest and coming up from small town poverty rather than an affluent home made for an unusually effective Presidency. Marshall would have done as well and could have had the presidential nomination if desired (recall he had served as Secretary of War, Secretary of State, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, was the a rare 5 star general, and his Marshall Plan for Europe gave him enormous credibility beyond any of the Generals who ran past or present short of George Washington.) Dewey's experience would seem irrelevant by comparison as would Adlai Stevenson's and he'd done more and better than Douglas MacArthur other than self-promotion. But without Ike and assuming Marshall didn't run and MacArthur self-destructed, it'd most likely be a Governor of New York or Ohio again as President for a less prosperous 1950's without the Federal Labs System, the Sputnik response, NASA's precursors, Strategic Air Command, NATO, Vietnam or Cuba OTL, the use of paratroopers to enforce Brown v. Board of Education school integration in Little Rock, the Interstate Highway System, nuclear power plants in the U.S., U-2 spy planes, maintaining the costly carrier task forces, backing the British & French down in Suez in 1956, the National Park System's major buildout), think of much more trivial accomplishments with a lot of belt-tightening after the war and New Deal's spending and far less interest in getting involved in any fighting outside U.S. borders. So the 1960's & 70's would be far different as well.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Interesting post...

Eisenhower was in the US throughout World War I, working on tank development so an accidental death amidst moving machinery, experimental explosives, engine fires and fueling accidents, would be a very reasonable POD.

The U.S. had hundreds of commanders, over 300 ahead of Ike in seniority in 1939, and much of the campaigns Eisenhower's credited with were far more the work of George Marshall (who had front line experience in the Phillipines War and World War I France where he quickly became General Pershing's right hand man/tactical planner.) Marshall very nearly headed the Normandy Invasion directly, the job was his and he really did want that one but his personal sense of duty to running the whole war kept him from it since he could literally assign himself to the job and would have been gleefully accepted by the British commanders he'd already been working closely with for 5 years already then. A 1943 Normandy Invasion and not a North African or Italian campaign are considerably more likely with Marshall directly in charge as that's where he wanted to start rather than the sideshows/diversions Churchill so fancied. Troop trainer Omar Bradley or Handy from Plans (Eisenhower's rising point) might step up, Patton would have a larger role and his understanding of terrain and logistics would get more play while his media frenzy problems that occurred in North Africa and Sicily would be avoided or postponed, Marshall was a friend and protector of George's from 1918 or so. Joseph Stillwell, Alexander Patch, Lucian Truscott, Walter Krueger, Mark Clark, Courtney Hodges, Walter Bedell Smith, there was an unusual amount of command talent that could have done as well or better in Ike's military roles. The defects in American diplomatic capacities in London and DC would have been more apparent with replacements more likely.

Ike's background in managing life or death complexities, infrastructure, logistics, the Pacific (Phillipines service under MacArthur in the 1930's), Europe, with Stalin, DeGaulle, the British Empire, post-war Europe, implementing innovations, the American Midwest and coming up from small town poverty rather than an affluent home made for an unusually effective Presidency. Marshall would have done as well and could have had the presidential nomination if desired (recall he had served as Secretary of War, Secretary of State, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, was the a rare 5 star general, and his Marshall Plan for Europe gave him enormous credibility beyond any of the Generals who ran past or present short of George Washington.) Dewey's experience would seem irrelevant by comparison as would Adlai Stevenson's and he'd done more and better than Douglas MacArthur other than self-promotion. But without Ike and assuming Marshall didn't run and MacArthur self-destructed, it'd most likely be a Governor of New York or Ohio again as President for a less prosperous 1950's without the Federal Labs System, the Sputnik response, NASA's precursors, Strategic Air Command, NATO, Vietnam or Cuba OTL, the use of paratroopers to enforce Brown v. Board of Education school integration in Little Rock, the Interstate Highway System, nuclear power plants in the U.S., U-2 spy planes, maintaining the costly carrier task forces, backing the British & French down in Suez in 1956, the National Park System's major buildout), think of much more trivial accomplishments with a lot of belt-tightening after the war and New Deal's spending and far less interest in getting involved in any fighting outside U.S. borders. So the 1960's & 70's would be far different as well.

Along with GCM, JL Devers is another possibility for SHAEF; postwar, I agree on Marshall vis a vis DDE.

If Marshall goes to the ETO, my thought is Craig comes back to relieve him, with McNarney as VCSA and Arnold, McNair, and Somervell as the chiefs of AAF, AGF, and ASF; Handy as WPD chief.

Yours?

Best,
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Well, the US & UK could have handed them over

It is hard to say. How much was malice and how much was the inevitable screw-ups that were bound to happen in the winding down of the largest war in history.

Well, the US and UK could have handed the Germans - along with their weapons - over to the Soviets, French, Poles, Czechs, Yugoslavs, Greeks, Danes, Norwegians, Dutch, Belgians, and Luxembourgers; that would have resolved any supply issues very quickly.

Best,
 
Well, the US and UK could have handed the Germans - along with their weapons - over to the Soviets, French, Poles, Czechs, Yugoslavs, Greeks, Danes, Norwegians, Dutch, Belgians, and Luxembourgers; that would have resolved any supply issues very quickly.

Best,

I am not sure what you mean by that. I don't think those countries (particularly the Western ones) would simply kill them all.
 
If President Taft dies in July 1953, he would be replaced by his moderate Eastern Vice Predident , who would have governed like Ike did.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Well, that's essentially James Bacque's thesis;

I am not sure what you mean by that. I don't think those countries (particularly the Western ones) would simply kill them all.

Well, that's essentially James Bacque's thesis, which is what I presume the poster above was referencing...

My comment was simply that however bad conditions were for the SEFs/DEPs in western Germany in 1945, they certainly had the option of surrendering to the Soviets if they had so wished.

What's the quote from Thucydides - "the strong did what they could, the weak suffered what they must."

"Reap what one sows" comes to mind, as well.

Best,
 
Once I read on AH.com speculation that Alfred Driscoll the then Governor of New Jersey would have been Taft's Vice President. I assume Driscoll would have had more enthusiasm for civil rights than Ike did.
 
The POD? Let's say he trips and hits a landmine in WW1 and dies as a result.

Butterflies notwithstanding, D Day might end up being at the helm of either Marshall or Patton, which could change the entire strategy. Either of them could pick up the war hero label and be a lock for President.

Any scenario in which George Patton ends up as Supreme Commander of the Allied Expeditionary Forces is going to require extreme amounts of handwavium to accomplish. We might even be talking ASB territory here.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
True, but I could see him as CG of the US Army Group

Any scenario in which George Patton ends up as Supreme Commander of the Allied Expeditionary Forces is going to require extreme amounts of handwavium to accomplish. We might even be talking ASB territory here.

True, but (under Marshall) I could see him as CG of the US Army Group (the equivalent of Bradley's 12th AG, historically); presumably moving up from the command of the initial US army landed in France.

Patton's experience in and orientation toward mobile warfare certainly would make for an interesting campaign in France; give him Bradley as CoS, Hodges as CG of 1st Army as the hammer and Devers as CG of the 3rd as the anvil, and things get very interesting...

Best,
 
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Eisenhower spent the late 1930's as MacArthur's executive officer in the Phillipines, doing the work and covering for a boss who sounds like he was getting senile by then or at least very erratic. Without Eisenhower there, MacArthur might find Sutherland earlier for the role, Sutherland doing the head minion job during the war and far less competently than Ike, MacArthur would have much less of a reputation and sway with everyone just as he was "handling" the defense of the Phillipines, careers have ended for far less so he might well be out of the picture after 1942 without Ike.

Calling Malin Craig back is an interesting thought, know too little about him to speculate. Using hindsight (fun for this) there's a dozen or more Army commanders at General or Colonel level by 1943-4 who'd go on to big jobs including Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff so unlike most organizations, Marshall had a lot of people who could do any of the jobs Ike did, and Marshall had been noting talented people when he saw them in action since the early 1920's in omnipresent notebooks that he used to staff up from. One or several of them with a bigger or more visible job in World War II might have been a winning Presidential candidate in the 1950's-60's and that would be a dramatic change since we generally just think of Eisenhower, MacArthur, and Curtis LeMay among those possibilities while less flamboyant and clearly competent alternatives are at least a dozen or more. A Vinegar Joe Stilwell, Jimmy Doolittle, or Chester Nimitz presidential campaign would have been refreshing indeed.

But I think George Marshall would have been propelled into the Presidency much like U.S. Grant, Andrew Jackson, or Washington and served 2 terms while being extremely careful in who he selected as a Vice President as he was all about key men who could do a tough job, and often unknown ones, so a particularly competent Governor from an overlooked state to cover domestic policies well would be likely (no idea who.)
 
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