WI No central government in Europe after the fall of feudalism

[S. Amir]

Is it possible for feudalism to end without the kings consolidating their power, thus creating a stronger central government? Maybe much of Europe would be made up of hundreds or even thousands of tiny or city states forming some sort of alliance such the Hanseatic League, Holy Roman Empire etc. In the High Middle Age, these city-states forced many landlords to give their serfs a better deal to prevent escape. How would Europe be like if there are no central governments? Maybe there are less large scale wars, perhaps?

 

[Hapsburg]

Perhaps if Europe's dynastic succession still revolved around divvying up the territories to brothers, France, the British Isles, and Scandanavia, could end up like the HRE.

 

[stevep]

Is it possible for feudalism to end without the kings consolidating their power, thus creating a stronger central government? Maybe much of Europe would be made up of hundreds or even thousands of tiny or city states forming some sort of alliance such the Hanseatic League, Holy Roman Empire etc. In the High Middle Age, these city-states forced many landlords to give their serfs a better deal to prevent escape. How would Europe be like if there are no central governments? Maybe there are less large scale wars, perhaps?

Haven't we seen this suggestion a little while back? The main problem I would see with this would be that the fractured landscape would make Europe very vulnerable to outsiders. Most noticeably the Turks and various northern steppe tribes. Simple weight of numbers would enable them to overwhelm even the richest city state if no one else to back them up. Could get coalitions of regional states but local rivalries would make them, fragile and they might have to evolve into larger and more formal system - say like the classical Athenian empire - to survive.

Steve

 

[Max Sinister]

"Haven't we seen this suggestion a little while back?"

You mean [thread=29254]this thread[/thread]?

"Could get coalitions of regional states"

Something like Switzerland?

 

[S. Amir]

I don't think that they will be too fragile. They would probably form some kind confederation if things gone really bad, like a Turkish invasion. It is likely that these small states would set aside their differences to fight a common enemy, especially when the enemy could threaten all of them.

 

[stevep]

"Haven't we seen this suggestion a little while back?"

You mean [thread=29254]this thread[/thread]?

"Could get coalitions of regional states"

Something like Switzerland?

Might well be as I remember that thread now. Thought I had made comments like the ones i made on this one. Possibly just what's left of my memory going.

Steve

 

[stevep]

I don't think that they will be too fragile. They would probably form some kind confederation if things gone really bad, like a Turkish invasion. It is likely that these small states would set aside their differences to fight a common enemy, especially when the enemy could threaten all of them.

Amir

They might be tempted to but, unless they were protected by difficult terrain or prepared to maintain such an alliance for prolonged periods, they would probably be too fragile. The classical Greeks were lucky against the Persians in that a period when they were undergoing an effective military revolution coincided with a the difficulty for the Persians of major operations on what was a minor border for them. Even then with a strong sense of Greek [as opposed to barbarian i.e. everybody else] identity nearly as many Greeks fought on the Persia as on the Greek side. Against a highly militarised state such as the Ottomans an occasional well organised state or coalition might cause the occasional check but in time would be overwhelmed I think.

Steve

 

[Gladi]

Bright day
Also remember situation in HRE did not appear out of vacuum. It was product of 30 years war which was pan-european.

 

[Max Sinister]

Oh, the splintering happened centuries ago, mostly during the interregnum AFAIK. The 30y war only prolonged the situation unnecessarily.

 

[Gladi]

Oh, the splintering happened centuries ago, mostly during the interregnum AFAIK. The 30y war only prolonged the situation unnecessarily.

Bright day
Yes but only after the War it became accepted state of bussines. Prior to it Habsburgs could beat any German prince. It took coalition of several major powers to keep Germany disunited.