WI Native Americans/First Nations adopt crops and technologies from the Vikings.

[Anawrahta]

The postulate arises with a small Vinlandic settlement in Newfoundland/Nova Scotia that transmits technologies such as Ironworking, heavy plow, crop package, shipbuilding, and livestock to the Native North Americans, and eventually the mississippians over a period of moderate, prolonged contact of perhaps two to three centuries. What do you propose the implications of such a scenario?

 

[Arkenfolm]

You'd need a lot bigger Vinlandic settlement for that. Livestock (chicken, sheep, maybe cattle and horses) would probably be relatively easy to transmit. Ironworking and shipbuilding is definitely harder. You run into the problem where the Norse will focus on Newfoundland due to lack of resistance from indigenous people (the Beothuk probably could have been subdued by the Greenlandic Norse), but will ignore the rest of the continent. Newfoundland is at the far end of Norse expansion, after all.

The hard part is really crossing the Applachians and getting to the area the Mississippian civilisation was centered on. And if you delay the main fruits of trans-Atlantic contact into the 14th century, you have an entirely different group of Mississippians than the famous Cahokians who will benefit from it. You'd have the start of the Little Ice Age coinciding with the emergence of new Mississippian states. And since they have access to a lot more than previous Mississippian states, they will thus have some serious potential in the future before someone like Hernando de Soto shows up.

If the Vikings can help the Mississippians in any way, then that would be incredibly. If fertile and strategic lands like the Tennessee/Cumberland River Valley are being abandoned because of drought/who knows what (that area in modern Tennessee has a conspicuous absence of native peoples from 1450 - 1700 or so despite a lengthy history of occupation by preceding American Indian cultures), then it's likely the Mississippians could have done better somehow.

 

[Virginia Liberal]

If they introduced cattle pigs and horses to North America that early it could be a big game changer. Culturally and illness wise.

 

[Richard V]

I think people greatly underestimate how difficult it is for Neolithic tribal people to adopt Iron Age technology. In many ways the gap is as great as the Norse and the computer age. The Greenland natives themselves adopted zero Norse tech after 400 years of co-existence. After Greenland colonies disappeared, the Danes went back and found some feral livestock wondering around with no one to round them up.

Plains Indians only adopted horses after the Spanish enslaved them to care for their horses and some of these caretakers took them on the run from the Spanish colony in Santa Fe, a relatively short distance from the Great Plains.

But if native Americans did adopt all these techs for some hand wave reason, including greater disease resistence, then their interaction with Europeans will probably more resemble that of the experience of the West African kingdoms.

 

[acrsome]

Greenland natives used meteoric iron, didn't they? So they probably understood the benefits of metal, but never learned to extract it from other sources, so their ability to work it remained very primitive. But if a single *ProtoIroquois blacksmith's apprentice runs off with the contents of his head, it could spread.

Likely? No. But possible enough to write a TL? Absolutely!

 

[funnyhat]

I think people greatly underestimate how difficult it is for Neolithic tribal people to adopt Iron Age technology. In many ways the gap is as great as the Norse and the computer age. The Greenland natives themselves adopted zero Norse tech after 400 years of co-existence. After Greenland colonies disappeared, the Danes went back and found some feral livestock wondering around with no one to round them up.

Also, there was not one single Native civilization but hundreds if not thousands. Even if a tribe in Newfoundland learns of Iron Age technology, that doesn't mean the whole continent will know of it.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

The Beothuks of Newfoundland were the least likely vectors. They didn't even have pottery, so we're technologically WAY behind most natives.

However, if the Norse expand south, eg to Nova Scotia, Ally and intermarry with eg the Micmac, then there's a much better chance for the locals to pick up techniques over a generation or so.

The other thing, of course, is you'll get somebody outlawed /exiled / or just with happy feet heading out into the boonies taking some tools and animals with him.

 

[wtw]

You'd need a lot bigger Vinlandic settlement for that. Livestock (chicken, sheep, maybe cattle and horses) would probably be relatively easy to transmit. Ironworking and shipbuilding is definitely harder. You run into the problem where the Norse will focus on Newfoundland due to lack of resistance from indigenous people (the Beothuk probably could have been subdued by the Greenlandic Norse), but will ignore the rest of the continent. Newfoundland is at the far end of Norse expansion, after all.

The hard part is really crossing the Applachians and getting to the area the Mississippian civilisation was centered on. And if you delay the main fruits of trans-Atlantic contact into the 14th century, you have an entirely different group of Mississippians than the famous Cahokians who will benefit from it. You'd have the start of the Little Ice Age coinciding with the emergence of new Mississippian states. And since they have access to a lot more than previous Mississippian states, they will thus have some serious potential in the future before someone like Hernando de Soto shows up.

If the Vikings can help the Mississippians in any way, then that would be incredibly. If fertile and strategic lands like the Tennessee/Cumberland River Valley are being abandoned because of drought/who knows what (that area in modern Tennessee has a conspicuous absence of native peoples from 1450 - 1700 or so despite a lengthy history of occupation by preceding American Indian cultures), then it's likely the Mississippians could have done better somehow.

I would add goats that list and there dogs as they would need herding animals and dogs to protect from predators. I have always wondered about going up the St. Lawrence Sea way. Could that have worked?

 

[Oliver W. K. Twist]

The First Nations peoples already had dogs, they brought them along across the straits. Otherwise, keep going. I'm going with plausible, if unoriginal.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

The hard part is really crossing the Applachians and getting to the area the Mississippian civilisation was centered on.

Um.
No crossing. Going around.
Saint Lawrence to Montreal.
Then Saint Lawrence portage to Lake Ontario.
Then Niagara Portage to Lake Erie.
Sail Upper Lakes to Chicago. Portage the Chicago Portage. And then down Illinois River straight to Cahokia.

 

[FALightFighter]

Um.
No crossing. Going around.
Saint Lawrence to Montreal.
Then Saint Lawrence portage to Lake Ontario.
Then Niagara Portage to Lake Erie.
Sail Upper Lakes to Chicago. Portage the Chicago Portage. And then down Illinois River straight to Cahokia.

That doesn't seem all that easy. You're talking about three significant portage. Its one thing to portage a canoe, quite another to portage a decent-sized ship with trade goods.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

That doesn't seem all that easy. You're talking about three significant portage. Its one thing to portage a canoe, quite another to portage a decent-sized ship with trade goods.

Still easier than going overland hundreds of miles.

For that matter, you can build full sized ships on the Great Lakes and have the advantage of them there. Don't need to portage the ships at all.

 

[Analytical Engine]

That doesn't seem all that easy. You're talking about three significant portage. Its one thing to portage a canoe, quite another to portage a decent-sized ship with trade goods.

Except - the Vikings did do long-distance portage ITTL, through Scotland for example, and in Russia.

 

[Tomislav Addai]

Depends whether the Mikmaq can take up some Viking thechnology befroe the Vikings grow too strong

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Also, in terms of crops, maize hadn't reached that far north.

Although the archeological evidence is a bit mixed. For instance, no evidence of pollen in Huron lands, but some charred cobs. My guess is that some was imported from the south for ceremonial purposes.

As for the Mikmaq etc., I believe they were seasonal agriculturists, more like hunter/gardener than full agriculturists even in the 1500s, so even less settled circa 1000.

 

[Oliver W. K. Twist]

A problem with the portage idea that hasn't yet been mentioned. Why? They would need to know there was a river close by to portage to, and rivers don't exactly stand out at ground level, now by this point inland, they'd be wise to have native guides with them, but the vikings weren't noted for their respect of the ideas of others. Additionally, they'd need to know that Cahokia was there, that one's a bit easier to hear about, if you have peaceful contact with the natives, it's going to come up sooner or later, but they probably won't have an exact location, nor will they likely be willing to share directions when they can continue being middlemen. People often forget the natives were just as greedy as the settlers, in many trade deals, both sides thought the other was getting screwed over.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

A problem with the portage idea that hasn't yet been mentioned. Why? They would need to know there was a river close by to portage to, and rivers don't exactly stand out at ground level, now by this point inland, they'd be wise to have native guides with them, but the vikings weren't noted for their respect of the ideas of others. Additionally, they'd need to know that Cahokia was there, that one's a bit easier to hear about, if you have peaceful contact with the natives, it's going to come up sooner or later, but they probably won't have an exact location, nor will they likely be willing to share directions when they can continue being middlemen. People often forget the natives were just as greedy as the settlers, in many trade deals, both sides thought the other was getting screwed over.

We know the experiences of the French nosing around St. Lawrence in 17th century.
But Iroquois League was founded by Hiawatha in 16th century. 11th century Norse will not confront cooperative 17th century Iroquois league, and they will not need to bypass St. Lawrence by the route up Ottawa river to Hurons like the French did. Rather, they can portage straight up St. Lawrence to Lake Ontario, and among the disunited pre-Hiawatha Iroquois tribes they are likely to find some friends and guides.

Probably the easiest thing for the Indians to adopt should be the crops. Sure, not the hunter-gatherers like Beothuk, Mikmaq or Montagnais - the change in lifestyle is big. No, I mean farmers. People who already plant maize, pumpkin and squash in spring are not making a huge lifestyle change to plant barley as the fourth. And if it is a tribe who is already struggling to adapt, having recently migrated to St. Lawrence fro further South and finding that maize sometimes fails in chilly summers... well, barley might come across well.

 

[Dave Howery]

Reading through all this, it seems like the big issue is just how many native Americans back then were settled agriculturists. Because most livestock/crops seems like it wouldn't be useful unless they are. The exception being the horse... those might be attractive to the nomadic tribes, if they can get enough grazing for them. Same for most of the possible technology that could be passed along...

 

[wtw]

The First Nations peoples already had dogs, they brought them along across the straits. Otherwise, keep going. I'm going with plausible, if unoriginal.

Those dogs were sled, hair, hunting, being watchdogs and for eating. There was and is nothing found originally in North America for herding.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

Reading through all this, it seems like the big issue is just how many native Americans back then were settled agriculturists. Because most livestock/crops seems like it wouldn't be useful unless they are.

And the logical region to introduce the cool summer European crops would be the northern margin of maize farming.
Where did that margin go, in 11th century, on Atlantic coast? On St. Lawrence/Great Lakes region?