WI: Michigan won the Toledo War?

[SinghKing]

As in the title- what would the repercussions be if the 'Toledo War', had been won by Michigan instead of Ohio, and the Toledo Strip had become an integral part of the State of Michigan instead of the State of Ohio (albeit without managing to acquire the Upper Peninsula of Michigan as compensation in the process)?

 

[Kowita]

As in the title- what would the repercussions be if the 'Toledo War', had been won by Michigan instead of Ohio, and the Toledo Strip had become an integral part of the State of Michigan instead of the State of Ohio (albeit without managing to acquire the Upper Peninsula of Michigan as compensation in the process)?

The Upper Peninsula(along with all it's copper, iron, & timber) would go to Wisconsin.

 

[Lateknight]

I think Michigan did win that "war" not to demean to toledo it's a nice city issues with the drinking water aside but the U.P is far richer in natural resources and it's a tourist magnet.

 

[SinghKing]

The Upper Peninsula(along with all it's copper, iron, & timber) would go to Wisconsin.

Anything else? For instance, at the time, prior to the draining of the Great Black Swamp, Toledo was viewed to be a better candidate to become Michigan's economic capital city than Detroit was, with far better transport links both by land, via waterways and by virtue of its strategic location in Lake Erie's Maumee Bay. Could Toledo have superseded Detroit? And as for the Upper Peninsula, would it automatically go to Wisconsin, or would it have been spun off to become an independent state of its own (the proposed State of Superior/Ontonagon)?

 

[SinghKing]

I think Michigan did win that "war" not to demean to toledo it's a nice city issues with the drinking water aside but the U.P is far richer in natural resources and it's a tourist magnet.

Well, to be fair, they only 'won' because they lost, in much the same manner that California only 'won' because they lost their fight for independence.

 

[1940LaSalle]

Anything else? For instance, at the time, prior to the draining of the Great Black Swamp, Toledo was viewed to be a better candidate to become Michigan's economic capital city than Detroit was, with far better transport links both by land, via waterways and by virtue of its strategic location in Lake Erie's Maumee Bay. Could Toledo have superseded Detroit? And as for the Upper Peninsula, would it automatically go to Wisconsin, or would it have been spun off to become an independent state of its own (the proposed State of Superior/Ontonagon)?

Not a snowball's chance in hell (pun mostly intended) that the UP could have become a viable state in its own right. It's never developed any signficant population; it depends entirely upon tourism, fishing and the extractive industries for its economy; it's tough to get to / out of (you have to go through WI to go by land; otherwise it's a water crossing); the climate is terrible (parts have a growing season less than 90 days).

I've been to the UP plenty of times, and while wildly beautiful, it's also a land of broken economic dreams, isolation, and a nearly hand-to-mouth economy. And it's been that way since MI became a state.

To be fair, were it part of WI, it would probably be known as something like "the Superior Peninsula" and it would be a backwater largely as it is now. The only advantage would be that communications with the state capitol in Madison would be easier,and it might not be as much of a stepchild--but it would still be a lightly populated poor region with few opportunities.

 

[Alt History Buff]

I'm from Michigan and I don't think the UP as a state would have been viable even in its two or three decade heydey when the Copper Mines were booming. It would be part of Wisconsin. It only represents about 3% of Michigan's population and they natives are referred to as "Uppers" (pronounced Yoopers).

Toledo might have been the capital but I'm not sure how much that alone would have affected things. It would be some more rail and water access but it isn't as if Ohio owning Toledo prevents Michigan from exporting.

A more interesting question is whether or not Michigan's southern border would go southward the entire latitude of Toledo, or Toledo would be this little exclave poking out.

That creates interesting tails if the border is another thirty miles south.

Michigan City and Gary Indiana, and potentially, parts of southern Chicago (or its suburbts) may be part of Michigan. Indiana would lose its northern coast and access along Lake Michigan. That might make for a significant shift in local power.

Detroit might emerge as the "capital of the midwest" rather than Chicago.

The greater political clout of Michigan might make Toledo the major northern rail junction instead of Chicago.

 

[Kevin C. Smith]

I doubt that Indiana territory would have been deprived of access to Lake Michigan. It would have been seen as a detriment to the development of a future state. As for the UP, I am not sure about it being a part of Wisconsin. In the 11 years (1837-1848) between Michigan's and Wisconsin's admission, the timber and mineral (copper & iron) resources of what is now the UP may have been sufficient to precipitate statehood. If early enough, it may have included the northern counties of Wisconsin-at least one tier, maybe more. This could have butterflies on the placement of the Wisconsin state capital and politics.

 

[jetpack]

For Map Of The Fortnight 77, Lock made a map with this premise, entertainingly in the guise of a heavy metal tour t-shirt. The idea is that since Wisconsin got the Upper Peninsula, their western border didn't stretch out as far, so that set up a domino effect on the later states.
I would think this is a plausible outcome, but I haven't looked over territory maps from the era.

red ärächnid's 1987 Red Venom tour

“Larry! Is that the t-shirt?”

“Yeah, man. Just came from the shirt place.”

“Dude. Awesome. The map on the back is totally metal.”

“Yeah, man. red ärächnid's first tour. We gotta know where we’ve been when we make it big.”

 

[Zheng He]

Wait a second I thought Michigan did win the war, hence the saying, "Toledo - proof that Ohio lost the war with Michigan."

 

[funnyhat]

The Upper Peninsula(along with all it's copper, iron, & timber) would go to Wisconsin.

Clarification: the eastern third of the U.P. was always part of Michigan. It was the western two-thirds that were awarded to Michigan following the "Toledo War".

A more interesting question is whether or not Michigan's southern border would go southward the entire latitude of Toledo, or Toledo would be this little exclave poking out.

The Toledo Strip ran along the Michigan-Ohio border, as you can see below. Michigan's border with Indiana probably would not have changed.

Michigan did claim a portion of Indiana's territory, but it was resolved without issue. Even now, without the strip, Michigan's border with Ohio extends slightly further south than its border with Indiana. The two borders have never been level with each other.

 

[SinghKing]

Clarification: the eastern third of the U.P. was always part of Michigan. It was the western two-thirds that were awarded to Michigan following the "Toledo War".



Michigan's border with Indiana would not have changed. The Toledo Strip ran only along the Michigan-Ohio border, as you can see below.

Even now, without the strip, Michigan's border with Ohio extends slightly further south than its border with Indiana. The two have never been "level".

BTW, might there have been an outside chance of the rest of the Upper Peninsula becoming Canadian instead? Just asking...

 

[Umbric Man]

BTW, might there have been an outside chance of the rest of the Upper Peninsula becoming Canadian instead? Just asking...

The UP was going to become British whilst southern Ontario/the Ontarian peninsula would become American in 1782 until some border changes were made when Lord Shelburne left negotiations.

Quite the trade.

 

[funnyhat]

I don't know the whole history behind the U.S.-Canadian border, but the current water border (running through lakes Superior, Huron, St. Clair, Erie and Ontario) is certainly very logical. Any other kind of border would have led to territory being isolated from the rest of its country.

 

[Pesterfield]

Would Ohio let it stand or would they try for a round two, either politically or militarily?

 

[Juumanistra]

Not a snowball's chance in hell (pun mostly intended) that the UP could have become a viable state in its own right. It's never developed any signficant population; it depends entirely upon tourism, fishing and the extractive industries for its economy; it's tough to get to / out of (you have to go through WI to go by land; otherwise it's a water crossing); the climate is terrible (parts have a growing season less than 90 days).

Your description of the Upper Peninsula applies to both Alaska and Hawaii as well, which are very much states. (Even if they were admitted a century later than we are contemplating.) There's certainly a chance that it might be able to carve out a niche for itself: Lots of interesting butterflies to be had either way.

 

[funnyhat]

Your description of the Upper Peninsula applies to both Alaska and Hawaii as well, which are very much states. (Even if they were admitted a century later than we are contemplating.) There's certainly a chance that it might be able to carve out a niche for itself: Lots of interesting butterflies to be had either way.

Agree. I am personally grateful that the U.P. is part of Michigan because otherwise I almost certainly wouldn't exist (I have one parent from there, who moved down to Detroit, and eventually met my other parent). But if it were its own state its history might have been very different.

The U.P. once had a thriving copper-mining industry, which drew large numbers of German, Finnish, Swedish and Cornish immigrants. But it didn't diversify its economy and when the mines became depleted, it fell on hard times. It's an area of fantastic natural beauty and did not have to be reliant on an extraction economy, but there hasn't been a lot of political will in this state to do much with it. Its population is dwarfed by that of the Lower Peninsula, which makes it very easy for the state government in Lansing to ignore it. The federal government has even less incentive to take notice of it - it's 300,000 people in a country of over 300 million. But if it were its own state, with two Senators and its own electoral votes (and it tends to be a political swing area) . . . it might have gotten more attention.

 

[Blackfox5]

Your description of the Upper Peninsula applies to both Alaska and Hawaii as well, which are very much states. (Even if they were admitted a century later than we are contemplating.) There's certainly a chance that it might be able to carve out a niche for itself: Lots of interesting butterflies to be had either way.

Alaska and Hawaii were also geographically isolated, but the autonomy of statehood was needed to retain the loyalty of its inhabitants despite their small populations. The Upper Peninsula is not separated from the mainland United States. It'll be given to Wisconsin.

 

[Indigo]

With a somewhat earlier POD, could the Upper Peninsula have been (bizarrely) part of Indiana? Indiana Territory was roughly divided by longitude and as a result the Upper Peninsula remained part of the territory until it's 1816 admission as a state. What would the consequences be of having it be even more separated from the home state?

 

[Kevin C. Smith]

On the one hand, I just don't see all of OTL Wisconsin and the U.P. being made into one state. It would be pretty big-a shade over 82,000 square miles. Yet, Minnesota is a shade under 87,000 square miles so, maybe...