WI: Mexican troops at D-Day?
- Thread starter Dorozhand
- Start date
If there was a Mexican expeditionary force in WWII, it would probably be sent to Italy, not northern France. If for some reason it was sent to France, it would not participate on D-Day. It would likely land in Normandy during the post-invasion build up. I don't think the Americans or British would want to risk the success of the invasion on the unknown quality of a Mexican division.
It would take a lot to bring up any Mexican forces (probably one division at best, although a corps is possible) to minimum standards needed to fighting the Wehrmacht. It would require training and Lend Lease supplies. And the supplies needed to fight in Western Europe are much more extensive than that elsewhere - you need mobile forces and plenty of trucks, jeeps, half tracks. Mexico can't provide that on its own.
It would likely require the US to set up a training camp in Mexico, probably close to the US border, to bring up the Mexican force to US standards. For all practical purposes, it'd be part of the US Army. It would have its own Mexican commander and officers, but it'd probably report to a US corps commander.
Italy was already a hodge podge of units - US, British, Indians, Poles, Canadians, New Zealanders, Brazilians. I think any Mexican force would be assigned there so that additional US forces could be assigned to France (probably Dragoon).
If Mexico fought in Europe, it would have stronger times to US and Europe. If participation also brought it greater economic integration with the US, Mexico might be more in favor of continued postwar cooperation. I don't know if that means Mexico would be part of the Atlantic Alliance system; there would still be a very antagonistic element to America in Mexican nationalism. But there'd be at least a potential for greater cooperation.
It would take a lot to bring up any Mexican forces (probably one division at best, although a corps is possible) to minimum standards needed to fighting the Wehrmacht. It would require training and Lend Lease supplies. And the supplies needed to fight in Western Europe are much more extensive than that elsewhere - you need mobile forces and plenty of trucks, jeeps, half tracks. Mexico can't provide that on its own.
It would likely require the US to set up a training camp in Mexico, probably close to the US border, to bring up the Mexican force to US standards. For all practical purposes, it'd be part of the US Army. It would have its own Mexican commander and officers, but it'd probably report to a US corps commander.
Italy was already a hodge podge of units - US, British, Indians, Poles, Canadians, New Zealanders, Brazilians. I think any Mexican force would be assigned there so that additional US forces could be assigned to France (probably Dragoon).
If Mexico fought in Europe, it would have stronger times to US and Europe. If participation also brought it greater economic integration with the US, Mexico might be more in favor of continued postwar cooperation. I don't know if that means Mexico would be part of the Atlantic Alliance system; there would still be a very antagonistic element to America in Mexican nationalism. But there'd be at least a potential for greater cooperation.
Ultimate Paragon
Banned
I can only imagine the racist propaganda the Axis would make about the Mexicans.
I imagine that except, Mexicans from the south, most of them are no darker than a southern Spaniard or Italian.
And you know most Germans soldiers had learn to respect Indians, Maoris, North African, Black Senegalese or Black South African troops, after being beaten by them...
Most colonial troops in the French Army in 1914-1918 or 1940 were considered elite troops as they were profesionnal soldiers, and not european draftees under the command of reservists officers.
Ultimate Paragon
Banned
I'm talking about the Nazis, not the Germans. These were people who had an irrational hatred of Slavs.
The units that went in on D-Day were pretty much a who's who of the best fighting divisions from the Western allies.
Also I question how much Mexican participation in Europe would really change its relationship with Western powers. Columbian troops fought in Korea and few people remember it today.
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Ultimate Paragon
Banned
So did Ethiopian troops, and nobody remembers them either. Or the Turkish troops, the Belgian troops, the Thai troops...
Considering Brazil did send a division to Europe, it wont take much jiggery to get them into Normandy.
I wouldn't say that. Sure, there were some veteran formations, but a lot of the formations that went in were green. Highly motivated and trained, yes, but not formations that had proven themselves under fire. No reason the Mexicans couldn't be brought to the same standard (though I still doubt they'd make the assault wave).
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Dorozhand
Banned
Indeed. The economic growth initiated by the reforms of Lázaro Cárdenas were just starting to really kick in at this time. I think Mexico had the industrial capacity to produce enough for a single division to go to Europe. It might actually help to encourage investment in the Mexican military.
I doubt it would be a Mexican supplied division. What you'd see is the same style as the Polish/French divisions. US/British equipment (in this case likely US) in order to simplify logistics and prevent any shortages.
What this man said here. The Mexican Expeditionary Force will most likely end up in Italy on a show the flag tour.
What about non-ground forces possibilities?
Mexico had a squadron or two of P-47s in the Philippines in 1944-45. Perhaps a Mexican fighter squadron is flying out of Britain instead.
The Mexican Navy's gunboat Durango was also a troop transport. 2 4 inch guns and space for 490 personnel. Durango could be part of the invasion fleet. Maybe Durango becomes famous when her captain orders the ship in dangerous close to engage the defenders.
TFSmith121
Banned
Not possible; read this for an understanding of what
Not possible; read this for an understanding of what Mexico could and did provide to the Allied correlation of forces in WW II:
http://history.army.mil/books/wwii/Framework/ch13.htm
Something to keep in mind regarding this question is that for the minor allied powers in the Americas, whatever forces they deployed outside of their national territories, much less the hemisphere, had to be volunteers and/or regulars, for internal political reasons.
Brazil's 1st Infantry Division and the fighter squadron that went to the MTO were - for the most part - regulars/volunteers, as was the Mexican 201st Fighter Squadron that served in the Western Pacific.
Mexico's regular army in 1942-45 numbered roughly 60,000 officers and men; absent those personnel needed for administration and training, home defenses and security assignments, perhaps a fifth - call it 12,000 men - could have been organized into a field force, and that is (roughly) what the Mexican order of battle for mobile operations (in the unlikely event of an Axis invasion) comprised; a "square" infantry brigade organized along US lines as of 1918 (headquarters, two infantry regiments, a field artillery regiment, and engineers) and that was about what the US was prepared to provide modern equipment for...and did so, under L-L.
The army and naval aviation units amounted to the equivalent of a squadron of single-engined observation/attack aircraft for each coast, plus the 201st, which was organized to a US TO&E for duty in the Western Pacific.
The Mexican Navy's operational forces amounted to four pre-war but relatively modern ocean-going escorts, plus a number of coastal and harbor patrol vessels; L-L provided a number of modern small craft.
Mexico's merchant marine, which was increased substantially in terms of ocean-going vessels by the seizure of Axis (mostly Italian) ships that had been interned in Mexican ports in 1940, was also added to the Allied shipping pool in 1942, but that - along with natural resources, some finished products, transportation routes and port access, and labor recruitment for US industries (primarily agriculture in the US Southwest) was about all Mexico could or did contribute.
Mexico certainly deserves credit for joining the Allies in 1942 (which they did after German submarines began sinking Mexican-flag merchant shipping in the Gulf and Caribbean), but expecting a major expeditionary force anywhere, especially NW Europe, is completely a-historical - and unlikely.
An infantry company plus replacements, in place of the 201st, is about the most that realistically could have provided for overseas service, and the question there is why infantry rather than aviation? Aviation at least develops a capacity the Mexican military did not have prior to 1943-44, in any real sense...
An infantry company does not, obviously.
Best,
Not possible; read this for an understanding of what Mexico could and did provide to the Allied correlation of forces in WW II:
http://history.army.mil/books/wwii/Framework/ch13.htm
Something to keep in mind regarding this question is that for the minor allied powers in the Americas, whatever forces they deployed outside of their national territories, much less the hemisphere, had to be volunteers and/or regulars, for internal political reasons.
Brazil's 1st Infantry Division and the fighter squadron that went to the MTO were - for the most part - regulars/volunteers, as was the Mexican 201st Fighter Squadron that served in the Western Pacific.
Mexico's regular army in 1942-45 numbered roughly 60,000 officers and men; absent those personnel needed for administration and training, home defenses and security assignments, perhaps a fifth - call it 12,000 men - could have been organized into a field force, and that is (roughly) what the Mexican order of battle for mobile operations (in the unlikely event of an Axis invasion) comprised; a "square" infantry brigade organized along US lines as of 1918 (headquarters, two infantry regiments, a field artillery regiment, and engineers) and that was about what the US was prepared to provide modern equipment for...and did so, under L-L.
The army and naval aviation units amounted to the equivalent of a squadron of single-engined observation/attack aircraft for each coast, plus the 201st, which was organized to a US TO&E for duty in the Western Pacific.
The Mexican Navy's operational forces amounted to four pre-war but relatively modern ocean-going escorts, plus a number of coastal and harbor patrol vessels; L-L provided a number of modern small craft.
Mexico's merchant marine, which was increased substantially in terms of ocean-going vessels by the seizure of Axis (mostly Italian) ships that had been interned in Mexican ports in 1940, was also added to the Allied shipping pool in 1942, but that - along with natural resources, some finished products, transportation routes and port access, and labor recruitment for US industries (primarily agriculture in the US Southwest) was about all Mexico could or did contribute.
Mexico certainly deserves credit for joining the Allies in 1942 (which they did after German submarines began sinking Mexican-flag merchant shipping in the Gulf and Caribbean), but expecting a major expeditionary force anywhere, especially NW Europe, is completely a-historical - and unlikely.
An infantry company plus replacements, in place of the 201st, is about the most that realistically could have provided for overseas service, and the question there is why infantry rather than aviation? Aviation at least develops a capacity the Mexican military did not have prior to 1943-44, in any real sense...
An infantry company does not, obviously.
Best,
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