WI Maria Theresa marries Frederick II
- Thread starter Fehérvári
- Start date
Maybe Fritz has kids considering he chooses his wife in this scenario? He didn't like his OTL wife because he viewed her as an Austrian puppet. He'd probably still be whatever the Hell he sexually was, but Maria Theresia is likely to get pregnant at least once or twice.
That said, no Silesian War and no swap out of Lorraine for Tuscany are the first two things I can think of. And ISTR in a previous thread on this subject, someone bewailed that Maria Theresia ended up a wall-flower whose only purpose was popping out babies. No offense, but Maria Theresia (and her sister) were both given a traditional female education with the eye that they would both be married to foreign husbands who would need a consort not a meddler. I think to bewail MT being relegated to the side (while a loss) is relatively realistic. Fritz will take charge where François didn't/couldn't OTL (and was regarded as a cowardly French spy for it), which left the field to MT. It's only perhaps in Hungary or the Netherlands she may have a voice, the Empire will listen to Emperor Friedrich not necessarily his wife.
*And I'm not being misogynistic or anything, I like Maria Theresia and I like Fritz. I just don't think MT shining like OTL is as likely. At best we get a William and Mary type situation (with MT not always being submissive though).
Tricky Nicky
Banned
I could possibly see a Greater German Power that makes France, Russia, Spain, Britain, Sweden, and the Ottomans far more scared. If the marriage sticks and the two empires unite, we could see the 1700s-whenever as the German Era
Considering the balance of Power it's very likely that this will prompt a war; France and Spain will try to peel off Habsburg Netherlands and Milan, respectively, but with the Prussian Rhineland and armies will probably do much worse, especially if Britain also joins. I could see France losing Corsica for instance (a new kingdom for the Habsburgs, or a British client state) and some minor adjustments in Flanders, but not much more- Britain will not like engorging a Prusso-Austrian empire and might well jump ship if they seem to be running away with the continent (an alternate Diplomatic Revolution perhaps?). Savoy could be the ultimate beneficiary if they get to keep Sicily or part of Milan (Venice as an oddball might also gain some territory, or at least see British investments/support as a neutral-ish buffer).
This would make Fritz a viable candidate to the imperial crown but how about him being a Protestant? The union would make the resulting monstrosity within few years (Fritz still needs to strengthen his army) a dominating military power in Europe. War of the Austrian Succession still may happen, because Fritz and his army are still unknown factors, but it ends faster and without the territorial losses for Austria. However, there is still an issue of the imperial title because a Protestant emperor is something totally without a precedent. So the options are: (a) create such a precedent (agreement of at least a majority of electors is needed), (b) recognize a Bavarian claim to the title.
The 7YW is completely avoided: Russian policy was oriented toward the Hapsburgs and Britain, which would leave France alone in the case of a military confrontation.
What would be religion of the children, if there are any?
Fritz would have had to convert for the marriage (whch is why his dad curbstomped the idea OTL). What that means for Brandenburg I have no idea, since when the elector of Saxony converted his realm did not, but when the Elector Palatine became Catholic it necessitated the creation of a new electorate to maintain the electoral college's Catholic Protestant balance.
As to it 1) disrupting the balance of power and 2) France-Spain jumping on the bandwagon and attacking and 3) Britain being opposed:
1) Prussia in 1740 is not Prussia in 1788. She might be a kingdom, but her rise to greatness was Friedrich the Great taking the army his dad built up on tour. Here, Friedrich's main enemy (Austria) is suddenly now his wife's realm. He can't snatch Silesia from her anymore (well, he can, but it won't do the marriage any favours). So the question then shows up of where does this leave Prussia when Maria Theresia/Friedrich dies and the union breaks? Do they both leave everything to a single heir? Do they pull a Karl V split: son no 1 gets the Habsburg lands and son no. 2 gets Prussia? Or does Fritz's conversion give his dad reason to disinherit him and name his favourite second son heir?
2) TBH the Bourbons are looking for an excuse to attack Austria. They've got Bavaria on-side and Karl Albrecht is married to a Habsburg archduchess. They want the Low Countries. Spain lost Tuscany at Vienna in 1737 (it was sort of a caroussel thing: they were supposed to get Tuscany and Austria HAD Naples, but then Spain went and conquered Naples so they had to give Austria Tuscany and Parma (things whicch didn't sit well with Isabel Farnese) so she's gonna probably want that back. Savoy wants Milan (as always) but OTL they went with Austria so I don't see why they would do differently here). François III of Lorraine probably ends up married to Maria Anna of Austria and given the governorship of the Low Countries next door. What King Stanisłas is doing with his time since there's no renunciation/territory swap of Lorraine for Tuscany IDK.
3) Why is Britain opposed to an Austro-Prussian union in 1740? In the 1730s it was their dream to have Prussia and Austria on the same side IIRC.
As to it 1) disrupting the balance of power and 2) France-Spain jumping on the bandwagon and attacking and 3) Britain being opposed:
1) Prussia in 1740 is not Prussia in 1788. She might be a kingdom, but her rise to greatness was Friedrich the Great taking the army his dad built up on tour. Here, Friedrich's main enemy (Austria) is suddenly now his wife's realm. He can't snatch Silesia from her anymore (well, he can, but it won't do the marriage any favours). So the question then shows up of where does this leave Prussia when Maria Theresia/Friedrich dies and the union breaks? Do they both leave everything to a single heir? Do they pull a Karl V split: son no 1 gets the Habsburg lands and son no. 2 gets Prussia? Or does Fritz's conversion give his dad reason to disinherit him and name his favourite second son heir?
2) TBH the Bourbons are looking for an excuse to attack Austria. They've got Bavaria on-side and Karl Albrecht is married to a Habsburg archduchess. They want the Low Countries. Spain lost Tuscany at Vienna in 1737 (it was sort of a caroussel thing: they were supposed to get Tuscany and Austria HAD Naples, but then Spain went and conquered Naples so they had to give Austria Tuscany and Parma (things whicch didn't sit well with Isabel Farnese) so she's gonna probably want that back. Savoy wants Milan (as always) but OTL they went with Austria so I don't see why they would do differently here). François III of Lorraine probably ends up married to Maria Anna of Austria and given the governorship of the Low Countries next door. What King Stanisłas is doing with his time since there's no renunciation/territory swap of Lorraine for Tuscany IDK.
3) Why is Britain opposed to an Austro-Prussian union in 1740? In the 1730s it was their dream to have Prussia and Austria on the same side IIRC.
If Fritz can reform the Austrian army along Prussian lines you would be looking at a monster.
Max Sinister
Banned
I read that he disliked her because she was ugly and smelly.
If he said that he wanted MT: Maybe because she WAS unattainable?
I was, however, speaking about possible events in the 1740s, not the 1730s. The 30s are a totally different kettle of fish - after all, at that point was nothing to "patch up" between Prussia and Austria. A grand continental alliance to humble the Bourbons was Carteret's white whale, not Robert Walpole's.
Yes to personal union, since Salic Law ruled the whole HRE and was only suspended for MT.
AFAIK not possible under HRE rules, especially with a Kaiser Friedrich.
Fritz is pragmatic and the Kaiserkrone is worth a mass, but he would not force his ancestrial lands to convert. "Jeder soll nach seiner Facon selig werden!"
France would not be happy about that. Maybe there would be some kind of War of the Prussian Succession or something where they just toss out some random noble with a distant claim to one of the thrones just so that they can have a chance of preventing it?
Tricky Nicky
Banned
I think Silesia or Lorraine, maybe...
I could see Prussia accepting to not be an elector to unite with Austria and replaced with maybe Oldenburg
I'm not not sure about the application of Salic Law to ALL HRE states. For example, some of the imperial territories in the Netherlands definitely had been passing to the female heirs (which helped to create "Burgundian Netherlands" and then to uphold the Hapsburg claim coming from Mary of Burgundy). County of Tyrol also was inherited by the women: the Hapsburgs got it from Margaret Maultasch (permission for her to inherit, as the only heir had been granted by an emperor). Strictly speaking, the Pragmatic Sanction had been issued to bypass daughter of the previous emperor (older brother of MT's father) as a heir to the Hapsburg hereditary lands. However, this had nothing to do with the imperial title: it went first to the Duke of Bavaria (husband of brother's daughter) and after his death to MT's husband but NOT to MT.
There was already a precedent of August of (protestant) Saxony personally converting to Catholicism to get the throne of the Commonwealth.
It wasn't suspended for her AFAIK. She was simply heiress to the Habsburg lands (Hungary for instance never fell under imperial law, and the Burgundian lands (or what was left of them), despite being part of the empire) had never followed Salic Law (hence why the Habsburgs inherited them in the first place)) NOT the empire itself. Bohemia's an outlier, I'm not sure why they went with Maria Amalia OTL, but AIUI the aforementioned was the situation on the ground in 1740.
No. Technically there were only two electorates - the Palatinate in 1648 and Hannover in the 1690s - created between the Golden Bull and Franz II's "forced" creation of the Napoleonic electorates. There were cases (such as with Saxony or the Palatinate) of the electorate being transferred to another branch of the family (the Albertinische line or the dukes of Bavaria). Karl Theodore of the Palatinate inheriting Bavaria in 1777 being an exception rather than the rule: since AFAIK he wasn't compelled to abdicate the Palatinate to his nephew when he moved to Munich (it was seen as simply reuniting the new vote (the Palatinate) with the old (the Palatinate electoral vote that had gone to Bavaria in the 17th century). Which is why I said that Friedrich Wilhelm will get his wish and be able to "disinherit" Fritz in favour of August. Fritz can't hold Brandenburg AND Bohemia. So either the Habsburgs have to trade their electorate (with Silesia) away, or Fritz has to renounce his rights to Brandenburg in favour of the next heir (August Wilhelm).