So IOTL, Alexios I Komnenos’s eldest brother, Manuel, died in spring of 1071. He was married to a female Diogenes and Romanos was increasingly relying on Manuel to lead militarily. After he died, Romanos had to rely on the traitorous Doukai who ultimately abandoned him at Manzikert. So what if Manuel hadn’t gotten the ear infection (or corresponding illness causing the ear infection) and was able to assist Romanos at Manzikert instead of the Doukai ?
WI: Manuel Komnenos doesn’t die prior to the Battle of Manzikert
- Thread starter Sevarics
- Start date
I don't know much about Manuel, but even if Romanos still loses the battle (not a given here) the subsequent peace treaty would be infinitely better that what the empire got IOTL. A return to the IX-X century borders while humiliating would in no way be crippling. The empire is still powerful enough to make a comeback once the Seljuks starts losing their momentum. And that is if Romanos still loses and is captured at Manzikert which, given how that was the result of Doukas not doing his job in battle, might as well be considered a remote possibility here.
who is to say the doukas family does not start the civil war unless manuel kommenos beats them early on and wins that battle ( i forget the name) were romanos lost vs the doukas family
Romanos MUST win the battle. He was brought to power with the premise that he is able to deal with the Turks. There was growing dissent within his own powerbase(the army) that he was not able to decisively deal with the Turkish threat,despite relatively successful campaigns in the previous years. A loss would mean civil war.
I think he has a better chance of winning without having to rely on Doukas to not backstab him.
I was under the impressions that Doukas used the army he was assigned by Romanos at Manzikert and got out of the battle unschathed. Without that, I am not sure what Andronikos can throw at Romanos. Plus, Romanos might just win the battle if the entire army is there to responds to his orders.
I think that the actual problem doesn't lie in the battle, but in the weird constitutional situation of the empire at the time. Tldr that Romanos was sort of a trustee for the Doukas family and Michael (VII) and Constantine. Ioannes Doukas would probably become alarmed by a victory, since it wouldn't have been the first time a successful general would have sidelined a young (and/or inexperienced) emperor (Constantine VII and the early reigns of Basil II come to mind); it's likely, I believe, that in the case of victory, he would have tried something similar to OTL, on the premise that Diogenes was planning to establish his own dynasty. A victory would probably change little.
The empire was definitely in a weird spot, but I think OTL scenario was literally the worst outcome possible. Defeat against the Seljuks, civil war, a competent emperor overthrown and the Seljuks taking Anatolia anyway. I don't see all of them taking place anyway if Doukas is not there to screw up Manzikert. Even if he feels comfortable enough to launch a civil war, I think the scale would be tipped in favour of Diogenes this time (who is still in control of the entire eastern army). More people (especially in Anatolia) would be more likely to side with Diogenes if he is victorious against the Turks. If the empire avoids ten years of civil wars (with two new contenders appearing when one is removed), unrest and people trying to establish their own kingdoms with the use of turkish mercenaries, the empire can definitely keep the bulk of Anatolia.
Hmm, I agree that Romanos would probably be in a more advantageous position, but he also was in one IOTL, and his downfall was caused more by mistakes he made (such as not capturing and holding the Cilician Gates or not attempting to capitalise on the temporary disbanding of the mercenary army of Constantinople in early 1072 iirc). So Romanos can again find himself cornered and forced to concede. However, with him being victorious, the Doukai (particularly Ioannes) may be less willing to blind him out of fear of sparking popular discontent, so perhaps they would force him to become a monk.
As for the invasions, again, I am not so optimistic: if no treaty had been concluded, the Seljuks would probably seize the opportunity to resume their raids in Asia Minor; if a treaty has been concluded, then things would probably develop roughly like OTL, since Alp Arslan could consider the treaty null and void. So I am not sure whether much would have changed. However, if the Doukai makea show of being in control of the situation and Mantzikert had been a victory for the Byzantines, the the Seljuks might be dissuaded from doing anything and decide to continue the peace with the Byzantines and turn their attention south towards Egypt.