WI: Long-Lasting Division of England

Hi! I am trying to come up with a scenario that would keep England divided until the 16th/17th century. Suppose the PoD involves the aftermath of Edward the Confessor's death. In OTL, his death triggered a succession crisis, and Harald Hardrada, Harold Godwinson, and William the Conqueror were three people who claimed the English throne. In the end, Harald and Harold were slain in battle, and William the Conqueror was crowned king of England.

Suppose the outcome was different. Harald Hardrada defeats Harold Godwinson at the Battle of Stamford Bridge and marches south to face William. Both sides clash multiple times, but there is no clear winner. How plausible would it be for both sides to agree to a temporary stalemate? Harald has control of the Northern part of England, while William has control over the Southern part. Obviously, both kings would not be happy with such an outcome, and both sides will eventually face each other in battle again to determine the true king of England.

What factors would there need to be in order to keep this division lasting for many centuries? I don't think Harald and William would give up that easily, but if they both die failing to unite England, then maybe it would be more feasible to keep England partitioned if their descandants didn't value the English throne that much? The tricky part is ensuring that neither side gets the upper hand and crushes the other for 700 to 800 years.

Also, what would the borders look like between a Norse and Norman kingdom in England? Would the borders change throughout time as both sides fight each other amongst the centuries? Looking at a topographical map of England, there doesn't seem to be a clear geographic landmark (river, moutain, etc.) that would mark as a border between the two kingdoms:

england-country-3d-render-topographic-map-neutral-border-frank-ramspott.jpg


I am also open to other pre-16th/pre-17th century PoDs that would lead to a divided England for a long time until the 16th/17th century. My main goal is a scenario where England is divided between hostile forces that constantly fight amongst themselves for many centuries until England is finally united around the 16th/17th century. Thank you!
 
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What do you envisage as the border?

Whenever England was split up in the 10th and 11th it was generally the Thames that was the dividing line (the division between Edgar and Eadwig in 957, reunited at Eadwig's death in 959; the division between Edmund Ironside and Cnut in 1016, reunited when Edmund died shortly thereafter). But its not clear those were ever meant to be lasting divisions, rather than temporary arrangements until one of the principals died.

An impulse might be to assign Harald the 'Scandinavianised'/'Danelaw' territories as they existed at the time of Alfred the Great and Edward the Elder prior to the West Saxon conquest - i.e. Northeast of Watling Street, Yorkshire, NE Midlands, East Anglia etc - but it would be a mistake to think they have much impact on the political geography of 160-odd years later.

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There's been a century, century-and-a-half, period of intermixing and diffusement by this point, including a quarter-century when the whole kingdom was ruled by a Danish dynasty - and you see this with Scandinavian personal and place names far outside their actual areas of 9th century conquest/settlement - so don't think there's an obvious 'Scandinavian' bit of England that can just be broken off and assigned to Harald. In any case, the Danelaw was never a unitary territorial entity, it was never ruled by a single ruler (instead Kings in East Anglia and York, and semi-autonmous jarls in eastern Midlands etc).

Any division will be messy, I think.

Other things to consider:
  • Partible Inheritance - Not sure we'd get an enduring cross-Channel or cross-North Sea political entity in either case. Normandy and England temporarily went separate ways after William the Conqueror's death. Norway and Harald's bit of England might also go separate ways upon his death, divided up between his two sons.
  • The Danish - The Kings of Denmark maintained a claim to England as descendants of Canute's sister. They were a bit of an irritant to the Norman regime IOTL, with campaigns in 1069-70 and 1075. A divided England might give them a greater chance of success, or the threat of Norwegian aggrandisement might prompt more intense efforts on their part.
  • The Isles - The Kings of Norway had an enduring interest in the Scottish Isles IOTL - Harald's son Magnus had been in involved in expedition to the Irish Sea in the 1050s, and his grandson Magnus Barelegs would lead two in the 1090s/early 1100s. Any Norwegian regime based in northern England would likely do the same - perhaps having aspirations for a greater level of control? The previous Ui Imar regime which intermittently held power in York from c. 918-950s had also simultaneously ruled in the Irish Sea, Man, and the Isles - perhaps we see some revival of this sort of polity?
  • The Scots - I imagine this would be unwelcome to the Scots - they had intermittent clashes with the Earls of Northumbria IOTL (Carham in 1018, Siward's campaigns vs MacBeth in the 1050s etc), but a King based in York hoping to also exercise power over the Isles would be quite threatening. Note also that the Dunkeld kings of Scotland possibly had ties with the English nobility of the region - Gospatric, a sometime Earl of Northumbria in the 1060s and 1070s and maternal grandson of famed Northumbrian earl Uhtred the Bold, being possibly a cousin of Malcolm III (Malcolm's father Duncan was the son of a Crinan of Dunkeld, Gospatric's father Maldred was the son of a 'thegn Crinan' - in any case, Gospatric's descendants became prominent Scottish noblemen). Given the difficulty the Normans had subduing the region, the Scots enduring interest in the north of England, and the possibly reduced resource and manpower base of a Norwegian Kingdom of *York (compared to that of Norman England), I imagine there could be a mighty struggle?
  • The English - I think a division of the kingdom, particularly after prolonged fighting, would provide greater opportunities for an Anglo-Saxon comeback than OTL? Both Edgar the Atheling and the Haroldsons made some attempts in the 1060s and 1070s. Edgar could also figure in the above if his sister still ends up married to Malcolm III. Might also want to consider the extent Tostig Godwinson (if he lives IOTL) will stay loyal to his Norwegian allies vs pursuing his own interests.
 
Thank you for the detailed reply! I appreciate how much thought you put into your answer. I originally envisioned Harald and William occupying the parts of England they currently hold, not necessarily a formal treaty designating whose providence is whose. I imagine they would both begrudgingly agree to a temporary truce if either side fails to gain a significant upper hand over the other. The Thames River does seem like an appropriate location for the division between the two kingdoms. I can see William pushing northward toward the river and capturing the city of London. Perhaps he could use the river to his advantage to repeal Harald's counterattacks?

My thoughts on your other interesting things to consider and some more. I found them really thought provoking.

  • Partible Inheritance - I agree that it Harald's Northern England kingdom would eventually break away from his holdings in Norway. But if William has a small piece of territory in England (vastly smaller than OTL), would it necessarily be the case that it would drift away from the mainland? It would be easier for him to govern the land south of the Thames, and the English Channel (Mor Breizh by the Normans) is an important waterway with economic benefits. Wouldn't the Normans see their holdings in England strategically important to have and try their best to maintain control? Then again, maybe I am thinking too much in modern perspectives, and controlling land across the English Channel was much harder during Medieval times.
  • The Danish - Weren't Sweyn II's raids spurred by William the Conqueror's complete victory in England? He only turned his attention to England when Harald was slain and the Normans had successfully taken the English throne. Even though he and Harald did not have a good relationship, I don't think he would have minded a Norse kingdom in the North. I could potentially see him intervening and claiming the throne for himself if Harald would to pass away, but maybe the risk wouldn't still be worth it.
  • The Isles - I agree with everything you say. Harald himself was also interested in exerting control over the Isles, but I can't seem to find anything about William and his views on the Isles. The presence of an unfriendly kingdom to the south would probably accelerate Harald's ambitions for the Isles.
  • The Welsh - I think the Welsh would be better off in this timeline. Neither side would wish to antagonize the Welsh for fears of Welsh intervention, which would not be ideal. I'm not sure how unified or ambitious the Welsh were during the time. With no where to expand on England, maybe they could expand to the west without any fear of retribution from the English kingdoms?
  • The Scots - According to Wikipedia, Malcom III did offer indirect support to Harald and Tostig, so I'm not sure if he would turn against them immediately. It's possible that he would attack them in the future, but it would still be a risk since the Normans wouldn't necessarily treat the Scots better, and I could see Harald treating Malcom's kingdom as a vassal of some sorts with autonomy just like how the North Sea Empire treated Scotland.
  • The English - I haven't considered the actions of the Anglo-Saxons in such a scenario. I guess the ones under the Norse would be more inclined to revolt since they seem to prefer the Norse over the Normans:

    "In late summer that year, the arrival of a fleet sent by King Sweyn of Denmark triggered a fresh wave of English uprisings in various parts of the country. Edgar and the other exiles sailed to the Humber, where they linked up with Northumbrian rebels and the Danes. Their combined forces overwhelmed the Normans at York and took control of Northumbria, but a small seaborne raid which Edgar led into the Kingdom of Lindsey ended in disaster, and he escaped with only a handful of followers to rejoin the main army. Late in the year, William fought his way into Northumbria and occupied York, buying off the Danes and devastating the surrounding country."

  • The French - Normandy's relationship with the French was rather complex. France didn't take Normandy's status as the king of England well since they viewed Normandy as their vassalage. With the Normans failing to take the entirety of the English throne for themselves, I think not much would change between the two. France would view Normandy as one of their vassals, paying tribute to the French king. A stronger Normandy, especially one with control over the English Channel, might pose a threat, but France was still quite decentralized and had loose control over many of its fiefdoms. I suppose a possible consequence is no Hundred Years War and no conflict with the English, which would mean a slower centralization of France.
Overall, I feel like the main changes with a divided England would be the Welsh being better off and France potentially being decentralized longer. With a stronger Normandy to the north, maybe France would expand southward more and take more interest in the Mediterranean if they fail to dislodge the Normans? Once again, thank you for your response!
 
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  • Partible Inheritance - I agree that it Harald's Northern England kingdom would eventually break away from his holdings in Norway. But if William has a small piece of territory in England (vastly smaller than OTL), would it necessarily be the case that it would drift away from the mainland? It would be easier for him to govern the land south of the Thames, and the English Channel (Mor Breizh by the Mormons) is an important waterway with economic benefits. Wouldn't the Normans see their holdings in England strategically important to have and try their best to maintain control? Then again, maybe I am thinking too much in modern perspectives, and controlling land across the English Channel was much harder during Medieval times.

To an extent. It is certainly much less unwieldy than e.g. the Angevin empire, or even later Kings of England trying to hold Aquitaine/Gascony. But there's always the chance for one bit to break away as a result of dynastic infighting, or French kings playing divide and conquer (as they did with the Angevins IOTL).

  • The Danish - Weren't Sweyn II's raids spurred by William the Conqueror's complete victory in England? He only turned his attention to England when Harald was slain and the Normans had successfully taken the English throne. Even though he and Harald did not have a good relationship, I don't think he would have minded a Norse kingdom in the North. I could potentially see him intervening and claiming the throne for himself if Harald would to pass away, but maybe the risk wouldn't still be worth it.

Yeah, I'm not especially well-versed in Scandinavia. Would there be any scope for campaigns in Norway whilst Harald is bogged down in England?
  • The Welsh - I think the Welsh would be better off in this timeline. Neither side would wish to antagonize the Welsh for fears of Welsh intervention, which would not be ideal. I'm not sure how unified or ambitious the Welsh were during the time. With no where to expand on England, maybe they could expand to the west without any fear of retribution from the English kingdoms?

To an extent, and having a divided England means they can play the Norman and Norse kingdoms of England off against eachother, but even prior to the unification of England Anglo-Saxon kings campaigned in Wales very regularly and with some success - even after getting bisected and having its eastern half split off for Viking settlement, Mercia was still a formidable foe (Ceolwulf II invaded and killed Rhodri the Great of Gwynedd in 878; various Welsh kings sought Alfred's overlordship because of the depredations of Ethelred etc.). Though these campaigns were mainly in terms of securing tribute or acknowledgement of overlordship.

  • The Scots - According to Wikipedia, Malcom III did offer indirect support to Harald and Tostig, so I'm not sure if he would turn against them immediately. It's possible that he would attack them in the future, but it would still be a risk since the Normans wouldn't necessarily treat the Scots better, and I could see Harald treating Malcom's kingdom as a vassal of some sorts with autonomy just like how the North Sea Empire treated Scotland.

But not sure how stable such a scenario would be in the long-term? *Norwegian England (i.e. assuming Norway splits off) would be much more of a peer than a superior resource-wise, especially compared to a unified England.

  • The English - I haven't considered the actions of the Anglo-Saxons in such a scenario. I guess the ones under the Norse would be more inclined to revolt since they seem to prefer the Norse over the Normans:

    "In late summer that year, the arrival of a fleet sent by King Sweyn of Denmark triggered a fresh wave of English uprisings in various parts of the country. Edgar and the other exiles sailed to the Humber, where they linked up with Northumbrian rebels and the Danes. Their combined forces overwhelmed the Normans at York and took control of Northumbria, but a small seaborne raid which Edgar led into the Kingdom of Lindsey ended in disaster, and he escaped with only a handful of followers to rejoin the main army. Late in the year, William fought his way into Northumbria and occupied York, buying off the Danes and devastating the surrounding country."

Worth considering also is the fate of the Anglo-Saxon aristocracy. IOTL they were largely rooted out and replaced during William's reign. In a scenario where William and Harald have fought themselves to a standstill, might not see such a wholesale replacement - especially if there's debateable land between in e.g. the Midlands, where things are a bit fluid and there's a nook for Anglo-Saxon elites to cling on. Any who remain in place could switch their loyalties to a Cerdicing or Godwinson if the opportunity presents itself (and suits their interests).

  • The French - Normandy's relationship with the French was rather complex. France didn't take Normandy's status as the king of England well since they viewed Normandy as their vassalage. With the Normans failing to take the entirety of the English throne for themselves, I think not much would change between the two. France would view Normandy as one of their vassals, paying tribute to the French king. A stronger Normandy, especially one with control over the English Channel, might pose a threat, but France was still quite decentralized and had loose control over many of its fiefdoms. I suppose a possible consequence is no Hundred Years War and no conflict with the English, which would mean a slower centralization of France.
Overall, I feel like the main changes with a divided England would be the Welsh being better off and France potentially being decentralized longer. With a stronger Normandy to the north, maybe France would expand southward more and take more interest in the Mediterranean if they fail to dislodge the Normans?

I mean, butterflies, though - another stimuli for the centralisation of France might present itself. As for southward expansion - there are some pretty significant fiefdoms in that direction as well (Aquitaine, Toulouse etc). Though, again, whose to say what happens with butterflies - maybe one of the great southern fiefdoms falls into the French monarchy's lap ITTL (as Aquitaine almost did with Eleanor IOTL), maybe some other opportunity opens up for the monarchy to flex their muscles in the area.
 
Yeah, I'm not especially well-versed in Scandinavia. Would there be any scope for campaigns in Norway whilst Harald is bogged down in England?
Unlikely. Harald originally wanted to be king of Denmark and constantly attaacked Sweyn for over a decade. He only agreed to give up his claim if Sweyn acknowledged him as the king of Norway. Attacking Norway would bring back trouble to Sweyn, and I don't think he would be eager to fight Harald again after such a long time. Sweyn was also said to be a kind and generous person to his people, and starting a fight that recently ended would not be a kind move to his own people.

But not sure how stable such a scenario would be in the long-term? *Norwegian England (i.e. assuming Norway splits off) would be much more of a peer than a superior resource-wise, especially compared to a unified England.
You do raise a good point. Even though Malcom III might not attack the Norse England, it is possible that the Scots will make a move against them in the future when the kingdom is vulnerable. Of course, it is also possible for the opposite to happen and that Harald expands northward in order to compensate for his failure to take the south, but I don't think he would fare well against the Scottish Highlands. His attention would be fixtated on the Norman threat in the south, casting a blind eye to the actions of the Scots.

Worth considering also is the fate of the Anglo-Saxon aristocracy. IOTL they were largely rooted out and replaced during William's reign. In a scenario where William and Harald have fought themselves to a standstill, might not see such a wholesale replacement - especially if there's debateable land between in e.g. the Midlands, where things are a bit fluid and there's a nook for Anglo-Saxon elites to cling on. Any who remain in place could switch their loyalties to a Cerdicing or Godwinson if the opportunity presents itself (and suits their interests).
I see. The Anglo-Saxon aristocracy in OTL did have secret meetings to try to place Edgar Ætheling on the English throne. They could bide their time and wait for the right moment to revolt. This could lead to the rise of an independent Anglo-Saxon kingdom between the two in the Midlands, acting as some sort of buffer state. A wise lord could play the Norse and Norman kingdoms and possibly the Welsh to ensure the kingdom's independence.


With all of these factions in mind, it seems that England (and the British Isles) would most likely remain divided for centuries to come as long as no English kingdom gains the upper hand over the others. The borders around the Midlands will definitely flunctuate as the Norse and Normans fight amongst themselves. In the long run, the Normans will probably win due to their closer contact with continental Europe. They could learn new weaponary and developments from the French, as well as, extract wealth from the English Channel via trade.
 
The Anglo-Saxon aristocracy in OTL did have secret meetings to try to place Edgar Ætheling on the English throne. They could bide their time and wait for the right moment to revolt. This could lead to the rise of an independent Anglo-Saxon kingdom between the two in the Midlands, acting as some sort of buffer state. A wise lord could play the Norse and Norman kingdoms and possibly the Welsh to ensure the kingdom's independence.
But in this scenario, I think even wiser than playing off all three against each other would be for the loose cannon AS aristocrats to simply offer their allegiance to Harald. Some of the AS bigwigs would be achieving blocking the Normans from setting foot on their land, but the Normans are pretty sure to have already completely subjugated other lands southward, and will be able to chew up more--the refugees from those lands, who must flee or die, will be footloose and available to provide Harald a much augmented if somewhat ramshackle mass army, if the concord between the more northerly Anglo-Saxons and their freely acknowledged Norwegian overlords can provide food and other necessities for them on an ongoing basis.

It comes down to a question of just how much more effective and efficient Norman military organization was than English and Norwegian fighting methods I guess. The English would have numbers on the ground, the question is, how many more numbers than the Normans would they need to check the Norman advance, let alone push it back? If the Normans outfight the northern coalition, the latter will be whittled down in numbers and pushed back--but I would think if the Normans fail to smash them all completely in one quick apocalyptic battle, the survivors will learn on the job as it were, and figure out more and more effective tactics to check Norman advantages, and so increase their efficiency--also, the more drawn out in time the Norman initial advance is, the more time there is for English and Norwegian forces to weld together in one Hardarada Dynasty royalist force.
 
But in this scenario, I think even wiser than playing off all three against each other would be for the loose cannon AS aristocrats to simply offer their allegiance to Harald. Some of the AS bigwigs would be achieving blocking the Normans from setting foot on their land, but the Normans are pretty sure to have already completely subjugated other lands southward, and will be able to chew up more--the refugees from those lands, who must flee or die, will be footloose and available to provide Harald a much augmented if somewhat ramshackle mass army, if the concord between the more northerly Anglo-Saxons and their freely acknowledged Norwegian overlords can provide food and other necessities for them on an ongoing basis.

It comes down to a question of just how much more effective and efficient Norman military organization was than English and Norwegian fighting methods I guess. The English would have numbers on the ground, the question is, how many more numbers than the Normans would they need to check the Norman advance, let alone push it back? If the Normans outfight the northern coalition, the latter will be whittled down in numbers and pushed back--but I would think if the Normans fail to smash them all completely in one quick apocalyptic battle, the survivors will learn on the job as it were, and figure out more and more effective tactics to check Norman advantages, and so increase their efficiency--also, the more drawn out in time the Norman initial advance is, the more time there is for English and Norwegian forces to weld together in one Hardarada Dynasty royalist force.

I agree. The Anglo-Saxons were ruled by the Norse beforehand in the past, while the Normans were just foreign invaders. I wonder if this would lead to some sort of naval "arms race." Both sides would want to ensure that their navy is superior to the other since having an inferior navy would be dangerous during an invasion. A strong navy is also needed to prevent raids from the other side.

Harald has a good chance of consolidating his power over Northern England with support from the Anglo-Saxon lords. One issue might be Tostig Godwinson, who was an extremely unpopular Earl of Northumbria. Harald did promise Tostig to restore his position, and I think the Anglo-Saxon aristocrats would welcome an Anglo-Saxon lord in charge of the earl. However, the common people would not be happy with Tostig's return. I wonder if William could try to convince the English peasants that a Norman overlord would be better than a Norse one. If he does, then this should even out the playing field a little.
 
Well the Normans in retrospect, at least in popular culture and probably I think for very good reason, have a particularly ruthless reputation. It would be terrible to be an Anglo-Saxon of some rank under the Norman yoke, and I was mainly thinking of such people being the ones who either stand and with Harald's help hold somewhere in the middle, or succumbing to overwhelming Norman power farther south, flee (or die). The peasants of course are wanted to produce on site, without them the land is worthless--but that hardly led to anything approaching civil rights for them generally in the Middle Ages and it is here especially the Normans have their reputation for putting up with no nonsense and instilling obedience via gross terror. So, such people are not perhaps as able to up and run as their former AS overlords might be, as these fleeing former aristocrats would have money and it would be the habit of the people they move among as refugees to defer to them, and they'd be likely to be able to get some kind of half-respectable position in the north, especially as fighting men. The commoners have nothing and would be viewed with suspicion as a rabble of strangers with no ties and nothing to lose. And of course the Normans are not going to stand around idly while their peasants go wandering off, and will no doubt intercept parties of them and either ascertain where they came from and send them back there, or just bind them to service wherever is convenient to themselves near at hand to where they were caught.

If enough commoners managed to escape the Norman ruled zone, there would be a shortage of them where the rest remained and that might give them some leverage in negotiations.

But again, William and gang came over in force, prepared to fight and defeat Harold's army, and if they arrive at Hastings with no such army to oppose them, I doubt they'd be very conciliatory--on the contrary, the English they face in the south would be largely depleted of fighting men of any great worth, due to such having been conscripted to Harold's banner and then marched off north. No doubt there would be most of the administrative infrastructure such as it was (which I gather by early medieval standards, was quite above average in late Saxon England actually, but as noted, not the necessary men at arms in adequate numbers).

William would have some ATL assets he did not have OTL, offsetting the awkward fact that the Normans have yet to face and, they hope, defeat England's army in detail to firmly establish there is no other effective force remaining in England, which is a definite downside to them at this early point. But on the other hand, William is able, for what it is worth, to take the high road at least briefly and with whatever sincerity or lack of it he displays, and point out he did not kill Harold. With Harold dead at someone else's hands, William might consider assembling the remaining kingdom AS hierarchy, minus so many of their soldiers, and producing the Papal decree proclaiming himself the rightful successor to Edward the Confessor the Witan should have chosen instead of Harold--now Harold is dead, the judgement of God is plain, William was always and definitely is now the only rightful King of England, and if the English will snap to and start obeying him properly the kingdom can go on as before, but better now that God is well satisfied right is being done.

It is the Saxon gentry, not the commoners, I think he'd be addressing and perhaps keeping faith with, if they do come over to him in apparent good faith. And I suppose many might, especially if he keeps his side of the deal.

But will he? Can he even? He has assembled a big force of very haughty and powerful lords, and he has promised them that their reward for prevailing and taking England would be a great increase in their wealth with new manors they would presume they are free to run just as ruthlessly as they were accustomed to in Normandy (and Flanders, I gather a fairly large minority of the "Normans" included Flemish allies)--or perhaps even much more so, taking over with a clean slate of zero obligations to these alien subjects. However desirable it is to get the willing allegiance of the English, he has on hand a force that can bypass that and just impose obedience in a manner they are well accustomed to--and any falling between stools might leave him doubly weakened, with the English dissembling in bad faith and looking for every opportunity to overthrow him, while any restraint he imposes by decree on the Norman barons will be resented by them--they might individually intrigue with the English in various schemes, or collectively set up one of their own to usurp William's claim, or just plain fail to prevail against the English if they are deprived of their usual accustomed methods of rule.

I would hardly put attempting to be all things to all men at least in cheap words past William at this juncture, but he had better be able to signal to the Norman barons in his gang that this is a ruse, and their "rights" as overlords will always take precedence, and that will mean that William will be roundly hated as both cruel and faithless. The more he temporizes with experiments in incorporating English methods and English people, the longer these have to use their traditional channels of communication to come to whatever consensus seems most reasonable to them--and OTL we know, they did not accept the Normans' early terms and so the King and his barons wound up systematically crushing the lot of them.

I have another point I am not so comfortable on--it is all very well for Harald's Norwegian invaders to prevail at Stamford in the sense of managing to kill off Harold himself, that seems entirely possible. But consider that OTL, with Harald dead and Harold alive, the native English king was able to not only kill Harald himself but subdue the invaders well enough that either they got back into their boats and left, or were suitably secured some other way (perhaps some individuals gave paroles and kept them, or even signed on to serve Harold?) so that Harold could then take that army of his, somewhat attritted with battle casualties, and march them fast down to Hastings on very short notice, leaving the North to fend for itself, which I gather happened without any remnant of Harald and Tostig's forces rallying and making any sort of trouble behind Harold's back.

Clearly Harold had a pretty good and pretty large army then, they could not only hold their own but effectively completely crush Harald's lot, and then Harold could reckon he stood some kind of chance against a second invading army that would have a considerable amount of time to dig in in the south. As things were OTL he did not succeed of course--but if the odds had seemed hopelessly against him in Hastings, would his conscripted army, already having served longer than legal terms permitted, have followed him into battle? Would not some delegation of the Witan (yes, I know the Witangemot was not a fixed parliament, it was just the custom of gathering up major bigwigs who more or less spoke for their various regional constituencies--all the more reason then I can suppose some bunch of AS factionalists can just whip one up and figure if they prevail the king will affirm it was a legal thing retroactively) come to Harold and talk turkey with him, pointing out that they could withdraw and attempt a long term war of attrition, or they could negotiate terms, but they cannot just go into this fight and expect to win?

Apparently they thought they could win, and I daresay that outcome, even a second time with an exhausted and somewhat demoralized army, was in the cards.

Personal disclosure--I have a romantic attachment to Harold Godwinson, I sentimentally feel he had bad luck and a raw deal at Hastings, and this was bad for the native English, very bad. I much prefer TLs where he wins in the south too and the Normans have the stuffing kicked out of them, with William deservedly dead and the Norman, and to some degree Flemish, systems back home decapitated and depleted and vulnerable to their Continental foes including of course the French king--I even like to entertain the speculative possibility Harold of Wessex gets together a counter-invasion fleet and perhaps joins forces with the hegemon of Brittany to go grab some Norman territory and perhaps parts of Flanders too. This last bit is hyperbolic and improbable, I suppose honestly.

But this idea of a split England is appealing enough to me to entertain. Having warned I might be blinded by excessive sentiment, I do think soberly though that the hardest part is Harald retaining enough fighting force loyal firstly to him to even survive in the North, never mind take over the crown. It seems plain that even if Harald's forces largely hold and in some military sense can be said to have prevailed in the battle that kills Harold, still the English forces are unlikely to be totally decimated or deranged--the short term chain of command seems unlikely to be broken to me, among the English.

But I am hardly expert in medieval warfare and one thing I do know about it, from taking classes on the Crusades and other general reading, is that chaos played a huge role. It might not be good betting odds, but I suppose it is entirely possible that the northern battle is something of a push, with neither the Norwegian nor the English either massively attritted nor enjoying clear decisive victory. With the news of Harold's death, the immediate response in such a case might be both forces withdrawing to recuperate, and pondering their next move.

Then at this awkward juncture, the news arrives in the north that William has landed.

OTL with Harald dead and the Nordic force apparently whittled down to something local forces could handle reasonably well, Harold immediately marched south. But here, any military successor in command of the English would have to realize marching away without some kind of settlement with the Norse would be a pretty terrible thing for the loyal English of the north, and would buy Harald time to consolidate at least a foothold of control there and leave them a foe to return to fight in a third battle, with depleted English forces.

Whereas if they just stay put and renew the fight again they will be depleted even if victorious, while meanwhile William is consolidating his control in the south unopposed!

Upthread I offered the scenario of a gradual shift of English allegiance toward Harald over time, as the English piecemeal have time to form their own judgements one by one of their odds under either pretender and wherever they can get away with it somehow, conclude they had better help the Viking.

One reason I didn't offer the scenario of a big part of England's established elites collectively and immediately declaring for Harald was that it was hard for me to see how Harald would come out of the initial northern fight with enough force to be a viable contender anymore, and it does seem to me that is the way to bet, but it goes against the OP, so I tried to skate on past it in silence.

Having acknowledged this elephant in the room, the only way I see to play by OP guidelines to suppose that an unlikely but possible outcome where Harald is still standing pretty strong and so is the English army--and the notables more or less collectively in charge of this organized English force do the math pretty quick and conclude their best chance is to accept Harald on the spot, negotiate terms with him, and then join forces to after some brief delay versus OTL, march down south to get rid of the Normans and set Harald up as their new king but with business in England going on much as usual.

Now if fate did play this unlikely hand, I do think that in these circumstances, the English, despite delaying perhaps some weeks or even a month or so before marching down, would have a likely shot at victory. After all, if they don't drop everything and start quick-marching south, when they do arrive somewhat later than OTL, they won't be so exhausted. They might also have time and opportunity to replenish their ranks both by scouring the undisturbed as yet towns and villages for more fighters, and taking charge of any able-bodied male refugees of any social rank who might be fleeing the Normans. Against this of course the Normans have more time to spread out and dig in, and they just might also be able to come to acceptable terms with the English within their reach.

Anyway once again, it would go against the OP for the north English/"Viking" alliance to prevail like that. The idea is to achieve a stalemate of some kind, both in the immediate short run of 1066 and the handful of years after that, and ideally somehow for centuries after. Clearly then it is time to put our thumbs on the scales of probability again and just limit ourselves to gaming out just how it could work out that the northern expedition does not manage to dislodge the Normans, nor do the Normans manage to crush the northern forces completely, and eventually a draw emerges where Harald and successors hold north England and William and gang hold the south.

I guess if we are vague and not too picky about considering only the likeliest things but consider longer shot possibilities, we can have this readily enough actually.

As noted the northern army comes late, but in better order, to the south. Meanwhile William has time, and avoids most of the attrition Hastings might have cost him OTL. For all of what I despise about William, he was definitely a systematic and astute thinker, and so I suspect he'd control the Norman forces tightly and expand out from Kent very systematically. He'd want to advance to the Thames pretty quickly I'd think and get control of London and then westward--and if he refrains from surging northward to thin his forces out too much, deploying a fairly thin but solid buffer across the middle of the south toward Wales would carve off the richest parts of England, and with them the various sites of ceremonial significance--Canterbury is already in hand pretty quickly, and London, and I don't know exactly which other sites are most important to get either culturally or strategically, but while just the southern tier might not look like much on a map, it is the major part demographically and economically I believe. Moving the bulk of his loyal Normans a short distance north means he has to use more carrots than sticks to get tribute and other forms of useful aid from the English trapped to the south, but he might well be able to do so, at least in the short run.

So when the northern army marches south, they find the Normans have advanced considerably in their direction, and have spread out somewhat, and might even be able to recruit some English auxiliaries to more or less reinforce the invading knights.

Also William has some time to send for more forces from the Continent, though I would not put too much weight on that in the short run--for one thing, OTL and presumably here, the landing at Hastings happened at the very last minute one could expect decent sailing weather across the Channel, so even mere communications might be haphazard, and moving big forces might be clean out until the next spring. For another William bet the farm on this Conquest scheme of his and surely took with him in the first wave everyone that he judged Normandy could spare; bringing more over, even some 6-8 months hence, might leave his home duchy in some jeopardy. Probably the way to bet is that he has to pretty much work with whatever Normans survive the upcoming trials by battle and other attritions (plague, Saxon uprisings, etc) that might be in store over the next few years--give it some years, and some profits being expatriated back to Normandy, and he can probably call on minor drafts of reinforcements perhaps as early as late 1067 and reliably a few more every year after that. But he has limited fixed and more declining than rising stocks of reliably loyal Normans to work with. The only way he can expand his forces beyond that is to persuade English men to fight for him too, and I have given my reasons to think that inevitably, even if William manages to be more conciliatory than OTL, he won't have the sentiment of native English strongly on his side--generally.

I do think perhaps, if William can keep his barons in line (and he was pretty good at that, being the son of Robert the Devil and all that, he was something of a Khruschev to Robert's Stalin, or Peter to Robert's Ivan the Terrible I guess, he could play both carrot and stick adroitly, with everyone knowing just how brutal a beating the sticks would give them if it comes to that and so motivated to take whatever carrots they can get) he can keep faith with enough selected English gentry, provided they keep faith with him, to favor this English minority and recruit them into the ranks of Norman barons. The barons themselves would resent this of course and I don't think William can go so far as to tip the balance of his rule in south England against Norman supremacy, entirely, but if suitably loyal and useful English lords can swallow their ethnic resentments and get with the program of Normanizing individually, I suppose some grudging support among some of the Normans for individual guys who are proven loyalists and learning to be suitably ruthless against their own countrymen in Norman fashion would carry over the first generation, whereas the sons (and daughters) of such turncoat Saxo-Norman lords would be quite intensively Normanized--it would be within William's general character and track record I believe for him to establish the condition that the heirs, and backup second sons, and most desirably marriageable daughters of Saxo-Norman trustee lords would customarily ship off to Normandy to be guests at some suitably loyal and connected Norman baron's demesne in Normandy itself--there to be raised exactly as natural born Norman, to learn the language while still young children so as to be fully proficient in it, to build up kinship ties in the same fashion as Norman gentry, and to be intermarried with proper Norman brides, or husbands--either way, the children of a mixed marriage of that type would be deemed and treated as purely Norman, and when the first generation of such coopted Saxon barons on probation die off, it would take a look at tables of genealogy or of course diagnosis of their family surname to determine whose ancestors were English, and whose were Norman, in 1065. In fact the third and fourth generation might be quite thoroughly mixed, with very few able to claim pure Norman ancestry (though fewer could claim pure English either).

On such terms, William and his barons would have to wait longer for the really rich tributes to roll in and they might not ever quite reach OTL levels. Insofar as ongoing warfare with the northern forces keep wearing his limited stock of true blue Norman barons, it is easier to compromise with the English collaborators, but vice versa he'd worry if the ratio of his forces gets to be too English--in later generations this would not be a problem but it is now.

But right now, in late '66 going into '67, they have a somewhat ramshackle and divided northern army to contend with. That army might initially believe that they had best catch all the Normans in one place and destroy them, then hope to move in on south England and restore the old regime under Harald pretty much. But the Normans would spread out a bit I think, maybe proceeding westward more slowly than I imagined and perhaps holding off on invading Anglia for a while, so they still have some decent concentration but in several knots. So the northern forces find they have to either divide forces themselves, or concentrate on just one of these knots heavily, hope to destroy it, then move on to mop up the next and the next. If their first battle is a victory of the type they hope for I would think the Norman incursion is done for--even if William can hold on somewhere, he might find he can only do so with a lot of native English help, the English would be more restive and less loyal, and his Norman barons still standing would be pretty disgruntled with this costly fiasco to boot.

So let's assume the opposite--the Northern forces swoop down on one of the Norman concentrations, figuring their superior numbers make victory a pretty sure thing--and then for the first time in this ATL, the English and Norwegian forces have to face just what advantages Norman continental style knighthood bring them on the battlefield, and find themselves being cut to ribbons. Also they'd be just loosely integrated at this point, and have picked up a lot of green troops who have not even had the experience of Stamford under their belts, and the upshot is they get decimated pretty badly. But with a king on their side, and fairly competent English commanders in parallel with reasonably smart Norwegian commanders, they see what is happening and retreat back north to regroup some distance back. And they start to learn what it would take to hold against Norman knights, a process that might take some years before they figure out how.

To what degree does the North have no choice but to gradually foster such knights themselves, and to what degree can the North English (I think I will look ahead and guess they might wind up centuries hence calling themselves "Northumbrian," though I am hardly married to this and it is anyway anachronistic at this point, but perhaps in retrospect ATL histories will be calling them that so let me for convenience, subject to counterarguments of course!) actually manage survival then the occasional victory with few to no such knight but with asymmetrical warfare innovations of their own, such as anticipating the development of pike formations, or fostering the kind of longbow archery that served the OTL English so well in the Hundred Years War some centuries hence? Did the longbows already have some primordial form in Saxon England somewhere, and if so, were there any good candidates for local culture of it in the northlands?

Related to questions about whether the Northumbrians need knights at all, and if so how many of them, are ones about whether such chivalry can only be raised and supported by wholesale adoption of Norman style brutally hierarchal manorialism, with a large number of deeply exploited and brutalized peasants going to support quite extravagant costs of devoting big and expensive horses trained exclusively for combat ridden by professional knights who also have to drill with little time for other pursuits, and therefore organize all society around their quarrelsome games of rivalry by private combat as the necessary condition for their being available to their overlords and ultimately king in concentration from time to time? Even supposing Northumbria must ultimately raise up and support considerable numbers of men skilled at this type of fighting, are there alternative ways the gradually consolidating north kingdom can sustain and command them on a more modern-looking (or we might as well say, Roman or Eastern Empire style bureaucratized professionalism) drawing collective revenues from taxes rather than direct manorial tributes, and raising these forces to serve in an integrated national army under direct control of the King? Must this class of men wind up also being petty absolute monarchs of their own private domains answering only to very codified feudal norms of legalistic obedience on specified conditions to a feudal network? Or granting a centralized army might exist, must what quasi-republican parliamentarianism Northumbria might evolve be almost entirely a toy of this narrow class of knightly soldiers, with the state riding roughshod collectively in the name of the King on the peasants just as firmly as the Norman barons did piecemeal--or is it possible that a more dispersed and gradual social hierarchy allowing better off burghers and the more prosperous peasants to have their somewhat humbled but still effective say at the high levels of governance and be trusted to a consensual oversight of their own home governance within their communities? Certainly if the knightly forces require a substantial amount of infantry support, as well as perhaps crossbow or even longbowmen, and maybe pike formations, that gives the commoners some leverage perhaps--it hardly did so in formal or apparent terms in many Early Modern societies of course, though perhaps we'd be wrong to underestimate the indirect influences mass peasant/urban artisan interests had on the practice of astute absolutist governance even in places like France in the 18th century or Russia in the next one, or say the Austro-Hungarian empire or Prussia.

Being the sentimentalist I am, I am going to guess the Northumbrians find that with some suitable tactical and strategic innovations of their own they do still require some knight-equivalent heavy cavalry to prevail in fights against the south kingdom, but fewer than the Normans normally depend on, and that they can indeed sidestep the institutionalization of manorial demesnes in favor of general taxation and funding of these specialists by the royal purse in a centralized manner. No doubt social hierarchy remains a rather severe thing overall, with common carls having rather few rights and living hard lives working quite hard, paying high taxes, and still at risk of a lot of social breakdowns in famines and plagues and so on, but the class structure would I would guess remain relatively fluid, it being relatively easy for particular individuals to rise through the ranks, by meritorious and useful service or by accumulating wealth commercially, and climb the social ladder without too much prejudice about humble origins a generation or three back. I think this is pretty much continuous with how society tended to actually work in later Saxon England.

For what it is worth, I do know of one model for medieval chivalry to come under central command and be supported by central royal funding--the Kingdom of Jerusalem. Under Baldwin of Flanders, the KoJ concentrated its knights in urban dwellings, where they were maintained by the King collecting taxes, building on the old Muslim institutions the prior regimes used to tax the Arabic and other ethnic peasants known as "fellahin"--one help here was taking over large land grants that had been donated to fund Muslim charities, such as supporting pilgrims to Palestine and on their way to the Hejaz, or supporting Islamic schools; the "Franks" had no regard for these causes and freely usurped the lands, but put all the revenues into one royal pot, which were then largely used to support the knights in the cities rather than granting the lands for them to disperse into privately run castles as in Europe. I gather this system prevailed as long as the kingdom lasted, and worked well enough for the successive kings. Of course these urbanized knights still had the class attitudes that their more rurally dispersed models in Europe had--in terms of background, quite a few of them were jumped up peasants actually, but they learned knightly fighting on the job of the First Crusade, and were favored because they were after all Latin Christians who spoke the languages of their betters, their intermediate roles being taken over by native Palestinian non-Catholic Christians known as "turcopols."

In the evolving northern English kingdom, I can at least hope that the new knights the kingdom gradually acquires are socially more continuous with the general population, and have no preconceived ideas of their personal entitlement to rule private domains, though no doubt they would come to feel entitled to be supported in lavish style by the realm collectively and probably be pretty assertive politically, as a bloc and as intriguing factionalists to boot.

Meanwhile the model for how we can expect Norman ruled south England to work is plain before us, just look up OTL patterns and expect them to prevail, for good or otherwise.

Getting back to the immediate crisis, the Northern forces learn a hard lesson and realize they have to rethink just how they are going to drive off the Normans, and for the moment, that they had best dig in and prepare whatever ingenious defenses they think might work to check those powerful knights and give themselves a fighting chance to just stop their expansion further. And somewhat decimated at the moment, somewhat demoralized, with those English forces whose homes are still fairly far away from Norman lines not only wanting but absolutely needing to go home to tend to the crops.

Well others who were scooped up by Harold initially or might have joined up after Stamford who are from the south have already lost their homes--they are still there, though God only knows how their kin and neighbors are suffering, and trying to sneak home and humbly accept whatever the Normans are dictating there would be problematic since obviously the Norman lords and whatever English are serving them will have questions about where these men have been and what their intentions are now, it being either a known fact or a pretty obvious guess they were off with Harold, or ran away to join Harald. So some of them will desert, and either wander around as loose wild men or try to get home again and take their chances arguing with the Normans who have some very very pointed arguments on their side indeed! But others will figure they have no place better to go, and maybe if they stick with Harald's army they can go home in some style and honor someday when the Normans are finally beat, and realizing that won't be anytime soon, but maybe still hoping, in their lifetime anyway. Can the emerging and crisis-ridden new kingdom of Northumbria actually provide for these men, can they be fed by some means other than letting them run wild and pillage Harald's own new subjects, and sheltered, and clothed, and their arms kept up?

Insofar as they can be supplied somehow logistically, I am guessing some fraction of what Harold recruited remains under arms and under Harald's ultimate command via mostly English officers and sergeants (the rank names and exact roles are anachronistic, but not the general broad requirements of commanding infantry forces I suppose) and it is these men combined with many of the Norwegian adventurers Harald brought who form the garrisons guarding the southern fringe of Northern defenses in this season of retreat. Behind these lines, to the north, the soldiers return to the land, albeit now battle-seasoned to be called up as local militia should the Normans surge on north, and resume the routine business of sustaining the realm. Near but behind this front, Harald and his new English ministers ponder just what steps they should try to take next.

And in between lies a no-mans-land, which at this moment is still pretty heavily populated, only somewhat denuded of young men and some of the older who had gone off to fight for Harold and not returned, either because they are lying in a grave somewhere between York and London, or because they have decided not to come home yet or ever for various reasons. But they are still despite being somewhat short handed valuable resources for whomever can come in and claim effective overlordship over them first. At the moment prudence, in the form of William holding the Norman barons on a tight leash, chains up the Normans southward, and in the form of Harald plus his impromptu Witan combined with the bitter experience of having their asses handed to them similarly the proto-Northumbrian forces are backed up some distance north.

I think the process of a general devastation and ruining of the middle lands is already going to be underway before the north and south forces each march to meet the other in a long series of violent clashes. I supposed the land retained almost enough workers, mostly women, young boys and old men, to largely get by, but with each town having news of the dire situation that exists some people are going to start slipping off--if William can do a very good PR job some of them will slip southward, others, probably the majority of the footloose, will make their way north, and the land will be gradually abandoned--those who either bold or foolish enough to remain can probably step into the most desirable lands and do well for themselves despite being shorthanded, but they will regret it if troops from either side show up to take their loyalty oaths to their side's monarch and requisition the goods. Each side will be keen enough to protect whatever they can hold to be sure--but if they find they are losing their grip and must retreat, they won't want to leave good land and partially grown crops and goods for their foes to rush in serfs to tend to them and produce more items, so they will burn the fields and otherwise try to wreck whatever they can't grab and run with.

My first engagement with this thread before I was moved to start responding was to look at the map offered in the opening post. It did seem to me a sort of semi-natural line of defense for the north might exist, not being familiar with English geography and not having the technical ability to edit drawings on this cursed cheap knock off Windows II system I have acquired in an emergency where I ruined my older Dell Win 10 LT, it is kind of awkward for me to articulate it, but I think I was looking at the bay of the River Humber and then the hills fronting on northeast Wales to the west. Then I came to realize how very far north that was and how little it left "Northumbria" so now I am hoping we can arrive at a line considerably to the south of that!

But I do have a sort of broad sequence of events in mind based on that first map, pardon me if my attempts at verbal handwaving are not entirely clear:

1) at this juncture, after the grand northern combined army descends on a Norman partial concentration, I am guessing on the direct road to London but north of the Thames, say on that low ridgeline I think I see going diagonally up into East Anglia, roughly the line from the tip of the bay separating Cornwall from Wales proper to join that ridge, and then gets beaten up and retreats, I think Harald will call a halt and disperse groups who remain with him, mixing Norwegians and English, on a rather unpleasantly far northern "line." To assist, I tried to look up a suitable map of England, but with Bing's insistance on commercial stuff I am not sure I ought to link to it because of copyright, nor I am I very pleased with it either--curse Microsoft, curse Bing, curse Win II. Anyway, I see now I am looking pretty much at the Trent, flowing out of the southern part of the major hill range running north south in the middle, shifted westward, of northern England. To get some distance southward from the region of Lincoln and southern Lindsay so far north and close to York already, I note the light ridgeline that runs through whatever that section of English middle eastern coast is between Lincoln and East Anglia, and suppose Harald proposes to set up a string of skirmishing camps running more or less straight east from the south tip of that range to the bay between that region and East Anglia, prepared to make fighting retreats on the east north to the ridge and try to interdict any attempt of the Normans to surge on to the coast, which I suppose is the more productive and populated land, giving way as necessary to the line of the Trent itself. This is only temporary of course, the idea is to regroup, recover while maintaining a tripwire line of defense, and hopefully accumulate a force strong enough to go south again for another drive to take London.

Meanwhile despite a plain victory in fighting off the first sally from the north, William and his more astute cronies are aware they are kind of overextended already. One major part of Norman strategy of course is to build castles, something they were quite good at and which combined with their knightly forces into a formidable military machine. If he has time to build a suitable number of castles he can be confident, or so they figure at this point anyway, that the English won't be able to get far past it--they can probably figure out, somewhat inefficiently, how to besiege one castle at a time, but the garrison can hold out for weeks and months while other Normans come rallying in to pin the English between hammer and anvil, either destroying them or forcing them to break the siege and run for it. But I presume it takes some considerable time to make even the rather simple and rudimentary "motte and bailey" type of small castles characteristic of the 11th century, so William reins in the more gung ho lords, holds to a light line on the ridge north of the Thames that leads into East Anglia, planning to move, once that front line is well fortified, into the valley of Avon and Wye to the west to straighten up that line and incrementally advance northward some years hence. Small parties of Normans are authorized to go forth on sallies to see what they can grab cheaply and quickly with whatever authority William's claim to the throne countersigned by the Pope can get him, combined with personal inducements of a positive or negative nature as the case might be, but stand ready to come running back to sustain the southern line for now.

Harald's northern lot has a lot of people in it impatient to free the south, as many of them are from there and worried sick about what is happening to their various southern English homelands, but these same men have also had a taste of what the Normans can do to a wrongly balanced and inadequately sized force of infantry, so they largely heed Harald's call.

The English of course have a rather ancient tradition of lines of fortification of their own; there are earthworks like Offa's Dike to consider, and also Alfred the Great came up (along with funding a navy of sorts) with a scheme to systematically create and man town fortifications against the "Danes" as the heterogenous bunch of Nordic adventurers in Alfred's day were known. Those probably aren't just the right thing versus Normans who know a thing or two about siegecraft, but just as even half-assed mini-castles buy time for Norman defenders north of the Thames, fortifying some lines of towns in that zone between the western hills and lands south of the Trent can no doubt slow up the Normans too and again give them a choice between bypassing northern strongholds (rarely if ever a great idea to leave such a site at your flank or back) or tie themselves down trying to reduce them, buying time for the northern forces to assemble and descend on them. Somewhat like the Norman foray/raiding parties, groups of men Harald soberly judges he can risk losing are blessed to venture out southward and see what they can accomplish on the loose, so the lands between these Northern and Norman lines are falling into a very dark age of raid and counter raid, with thugs of one side or the other setting themselves up as overlords of the moment and grabbing and running with everything they can carry or drive before them when a sizeable force of the other side shows up to challenge them. This is not quite symmetrical; a lot of Harold's original army is locals from these regions and these guys will try to hold on to their old homes as best they can, and when they decide to run north instead it won't be so much like a slave raid as a commando rescue operation, but however much difference that makes to the women and elderly folk and children running north to a dubious life as exiles and refugees subjectively, objectively they are on a long, painful, hungry and sick and tiring dangerous gauntlet of a trail to a rather sad immediate future as supplicant beggars in the north.

This mutual scorching of the earth between the defense lines is going to change the overall dynamic of desired expansion for both sides. Assuming each set of lines can however hold in the short run, it buys time to strengthen them in the longer run, and behind them, north and south, each royal regime is pretty secure to rebuild England on their respective turfs according to each regime's character. The more of a no-mans-land the intermediate terrain becomes, the harder it is for captives in Norman territory to have second thoughts and run north in turn, though I suppose a trickle of such refugees would remain a thing for decades and generations to come.

One other thing I saw on the OP map, looking at the farther line along the northern lower reach of the Trent running into the North Sea, is that to its west beyond the central ridge line there appears to be a broad valley zone with two rivers leading into a bay on the northeast corner of Wales; the northern river is the Mersey. I don't know the climate map of that section of western central England, but geographically it looked to me like one could have a prosperous zone in the lower part of the valley near the coast, and the slope going east is gentle, allowing for a pastoral hinterland pretty continuous with the lowland farms, and a population native to there committed to defending themselves would enjoy some advantages setting up sentries along the eastern ridgeline, which beyond that ridge peak falls down eastward in ruggedly hilly terrain that would be difficult to send a coherent attacking force up through. If that curved wall northwestern valley could be in Northumbrian hands, with a loyal population filling it, the western part of the line drawn to check the Normans is pretty much pre-built, or so it looks to me.

Then thinking about how Harald's personal invasion force would surely suffer some attrition at Stamford even if he did quite well overall there, and the English force while large is not after all exactly a Hunnish horde either, I am guessing instead, it might be smarter at least for the moment to hand off defending that part of the north wall to someone else. Specifically I am thinking of Wales of course. Approach whomever is the current overlord of northern Wales (it is not clear to me whether that guy would also be the lord of south Wales at this time) and magnanimously grant him this extension of Welsh territory in perpetuity, perhaps including some of the hill country beyond the ridge as well, with the clear subtext that if these Welsh will just defend this land and not let any enemies of Northumbria into or through it, Harald and his successors will leave it to them without quarrel.

A clever little trick is that this more or less crescent shaped west-facing valley scoops all the way south to the latitude roughly of East Anglia's northern coast, and Harald would figure he'd be doing quite well if he managed to secure any land south of that line in these circumstances, so while he has not granted the Welsh the land the opening of the valley in the south eastward opens on to at all, it will probably be either no-mans-land, or under the Norman thumb--so if the Welsh get expansionist ideas further eastward, behold, their obvious way forward is pointed like a gun (or crossbow) at the northwest marches of southern England. Vice versa, the Normans are more of a threat to the Welsh, if they occupy this eastward extension, than the Nordies are. It might become the basis of a very long and amicable alliance with Wales permanently on the Northern side.

In the longer run, where the border finally does stabilize, will depend a lot on demographics of both sides, economics, and of course the details of military tactics and strategy. I believe if the North can buy itself time, some 20-30 years or more, to largely develop with no more drains on it than holding that southern picket line, they can over that time develop some heavy horse cavalry ability--probably remaining inferior to Norman knights, man to man and horse to horse, but also integrate them into a more balanced combined force with various anti-chivalry tactical tricks. Over time the fortifications and siegecraft of both sides will escalate in an arms race that will be something to behold, as castles, town fortifications, and field works are laid down in sketch and then elaborated.

Again I am handicapped in my understanding of the nature of the terrain on the ground, but just looking at the topographical map I suppose the north will advance over time to the ridge running north of the lowland running from the highlands of Exeter to the mouths of the Nene and Great Ouse rivers, with the Normans dug on on the south ridge, and they will fight increasingly intensively in that valley and gradually hammer out a more or less settled land border, probably along the course of one or the other of those rivers, or with one side (probably the Normans in this case) pushing their way right up to just below the ridge peaks of the other's ridgetop line. In area this division looks like a pretty even one to my eye, though it would help to have some geographic tools to verify that--in economics and demographic potential, the North is clearly going to be trailing behind the south. Though for what it is worth, I don't think it is too irrational, sentimental or romantic to suggest maybe the way the North evolves socially would be measurably healthier and more balanced politically, and might have aspects favoring vigorous self-development offsetting the virtues, in their grim and inhumane fashion, the Norman more terroristic approach has along those lines of hard nose to the grindstone incentives. Also, I am hoping that by gifting the Welsh with the strategic concession of that modest zone of the northwest, the north kingdom defuses quarrels with them, wins them over as friends and allies, and thus secures its sea lane control of the corridor into the Irish Sea and northwest of Scotland to indeed consolidate the Scottish Isles and the other coasts of the region.

Having Scotland as an enemy would not be a good thing, but I read what did happen OTL as an indication that here too, Harald can lay foundations for essentially friendly and cooperative relations that might lead over time to Scotland's lowland core drifting gradually and peacefully into Northumbrian consolidation; then even if the Highlands have resistant elements these can be either conciliated or crushed.

The upshot then would be essentially a Greater Scotland coming down farther south and with its center of population more southern and English.

Meanwhile, if Wales is a permanent friend of the Northumbrian realm, the Nords seem likely enough to assist the Welsh in holding their own versus Norman expansion. Wales thus remains on the map, its people speak Brythonic.

And what about Ireland? Northumbria as I am now styling it has an outlet onto the Irish Sea from the get-go, Ulster lies near to hand. Over time I would think the Nord kings (along with various factions of subjects acting privately on their own hook) would poke their nose into northern Irish affairs, offering support and help to this or that petty coastal kinglet who seems "buyable" in this fashion, and gradually start to build up ambitions about knitting together an integrated set of Irish dependencies to run in parallel under a common scheme of development.

And then, seeing this foreign cherry-picking proceeding, rival Irish interests would see their way toward more active cooperation with each other, versus the foreign puppet masters of Northumbria, and a counter-federation against Northumbrian hegemony might also evolve, thus Ireland would perhaps have two evolving nation states emerging on its soil. Or not of course, OTl the English Pale failed to catalyze such a federal union after all.
 
I like this idea. A France-facing Norman England in the south and a Scandinavia-facing England in the north. And it’s not so far-fetched.

I do wonder about whether Harald and the northerners would have the shrewdness to see the benefit in giving up the Mersey valley and the Wirral, which would probably be looked at as lands hard-won from Wales. Your politics are smart in this regard, but I wonder whether folks in the moment would see the big picture.
 
I like this idea. A France-facing Norman England in the south and a Scandinavia-facing England in the north. And it’s not so far-fetched.

I do wonder about whether Harald and the northerners would have the shrewdness to see the benefit in giving up the Mersey valley and the Wirral, which would probably be looked at as lands hard-won from Wales. Your politics are smart in this regard, but I wonder whether folks in the moment would see the big picture.
Yes, I did admit I was not very familiar with English geography especially in the north. I was just looking at the topography and thinking it looked like a bowl that would be defensible, with a northern and southern "gate," the former onto territory Harald makes it clear will remain English--a narrow passage for either side to trouble the other through, but ample for trade and other friendly relations. Then in the south it seemed more and collectively wider passages would fan out southeastward as narrow corridors through more hilly terrain--and the northern part of that southern opening is well south of the line Harald might hope to hold in the short run. Either the land to the east of this broken range remains no man's land, or if Harald prevails he might believe it would be fairly soon and he'd be there too to remind them how generous this gift is and two friendly mutually defensible passages is pretty good for them, while if the Normans get it--well I had decided that the Welsh, not displeased to see the English on the ropes, would nevertheless consider Harald overall the more suitable neighbor, especially if it is a matter of the Normans threatening to come in against themselves. I imagine the Normans surely would get a swift grip on at least the eastern part of Cornwall and cut Wales off from direct overland contact with West Cornwall, so they would have examples before them of what Normanizing looks like for Welsh people, and focus on defending their southeast approaches.

So I suppose I need not have repeated all that to you since it is what I expressed pretty much before, but it was based on topography alone, and probably on a map that rather exaggerates the severity of the terrain. Mind, I still think the shape of the landscape does indeed favor Welsh defense.

I didn't realize just what number of major famous English centers I was talking about handing over though. Now I hope it would be assumed as I did that I was not talking about inviting the Welsh in to ethnically cleanse the place; whatever number of English speakers actually live there as of 1066 would be expected to stay, it is mainly a matter of handing the zone over to the Welsh realm as a dependency, and indeed making it also available for Welsh persons to settle in too.

But I have to admit I have no idea how "saturated" the zone was in terms of Malthusian pressure on the land even in peace time. If there is not room and to spare at this early date in that region, of course Harald would not make such a sweeping offer, and all the logic of close defense of the zone switches over to "Northumbrian" as I called it England being the power and people that hold it, with their borders to the west on Wales itself being as they were. Perhaps much smaller and judicious concessions to swing the Welsh over to at least favorable neutrality would be in order? Or perhaps simply offering to settle other outstanding matters between England and Wales in a way that the Welsh would find helpful and generous?

Anyway, if the picture is closer to how I envisioned it--a region that would be a huge part of England in the future, but at this early date is kind of rustic and out of the way with plenty of room to spare for more--the fact Harald is a foreigner whereas the English I envisioned rallying to him know they need him and overall are doing well with him might give him a more detached view of what it is to lose the territory, versus the benefits it brings to what remains of the northern, "true" kingdom.

Mainly I was trying to respond to the OP question about where a more or less "natural" line dividing the kingdoms would lie, which led me to look at the central range of hills as a geographic anchor which, if one annexed it to Wales and trusted the Welsh to hold it, would cut in half the length of the line Harald should hold eastward to the sea. Then it would be easier for me to believe the northern English line I envisioned to the coast might hold in part because of depth across "no man's land" from the Norman core area proper, with the northerners able to spare some force to try forays into the middle zone to get a sense of what is what and thereby buy time to gradually improve their cohesion and proficiency as serious military contenders against the Normans. The various forayers learn on the job, how to break contact if it seems it is getting too hot and heavy for them, accumulate tactics and stratagems offsetting and reducing the imbalance between North English and Norman controlled and largely comprised forces, while fortification proceeds first on the farther north refuge line, and then as opportunity permits edging back south from there to eventually confront the Normans close up--and perhaps the delay before they come that close to each other is considerable.

OTL the Normans were able to overrun the whole kingdom pretty quickly I believe, but they had enough trouble in the north they wound up just massacring huge swathes of the population I gather. So it is a question of whether Harald can limit that projection north, and I wanted to see how to give him the shortest and most advantageous lines the map would allow. Again it was a map that omitted a whole sheaf of relevant dimensions of regional detail; when I look at the region I blithely called "No Man's Land" it seems to hold another huge swathe of major English regions of OTL, so I might be way off base, but I suspect perhaps this thing, horrible as it seems, might be the outcome.

Indeed, if some such cession happens at all, it might not at all be a matter of Harald just tossing it away as a gift; more perhaps like the Welsh do agree to assist Harald, but they want a stiff price for it, and some time after 1066 Harald and his followers feel they are in a dire enough situation that such a concession might be a reasonable price to pay for badly needed help--then with Welsh help the North finally stops its dangerous downward slide and stabilizes, and the accruing advantages of time gradually making them stronger in various ways do accumulate to the point that after the cession the border stabilizes, and indeed the North starts pressing in on thinly held Norman claims and down toward the Thames--but as they advance the Normans are also stronger, with more castles and so forth they've had more time and more subjects to build the farther south you go, getting closer to Norman (on the mainland) sources of reinforcement and the regions the Normans have taken control of most thoroughly--so the North does not actually penetrate into the Thames Valley itself.

After all, someone upthread said the Thames is the traditional division between North and South, and that seemed amazingly far south for such a boundary to me--but then I looked more closely at how much territory is south of it, and how much of that is either good land, highly defensible, or even both, and that before Alfred assumed control over the remnants of Mercia in the west, the east having been overrun by "Danes," and despite the fact that Wessex also had lost a lot of eastern and northern territory to the Danes too, Wessex by Alfred's reign clearly dominated Mersia and was plainly still the majority of the whole united kingdom of England even after its own losses to the Danes.

So making sure the Normans manage to hold at least the northern ridge over the Thames and hold the Thames largely securely far into the future surely makes the South the larger of the two realms.

At least if we look only at territory that was English in 1066! If Harald and his successors more or less incorporate the Scottish Isles, get at least some shadowy and not necessarily very heavy handed hegemony over the Highlands, and perhaps even win over the Lowland Scots to incorporate northward, along with more distant Atlantic isles--perhaps even hanging on to Iceland, and maybe Norway itself--then the Northern kingdom, while clearly poorer per capita and despite such grandiose concatenation of fractious sub-realms lower in population even in counting all that as one--would clearly have some assets (as well as liabilities to be sure) that might make them weigh comparably to the more concentrated, richer and even more populous Norman land in the south.

I will also admit my romanticism is in favor of the idea that on the whole, English and even Welsh Britons prefer the style and form of the Northern regime, and that Norman wealth and population such as it is comes at the cost to the majority of rather gross oppression that is widely deplored--so that while on paper the Normans ought to be able to muster the kind of force that can surge forth and crust the North like a bug, they find when they try to do that that their control of the peasantry is dangerously weak, and that the forces they do send north are -cbeset with treachery and defections and riddled with spies and that Northern counter-commando units can filter deep south of the border (at least when the floodgates of war are open churning up the social order on the front) and get a lot of covert assistance. Not to make too big a thing of it, or set Northumbria up as some sort of populist paradise, but I suspect that is the way that factor will lean.

Over time of course the English under Norman rule will more or less adapt and come to think of themselves as alien from those wild Vikings and trolls who live in the bleak northlands; perhaps Norman rule will soften (to a degree, it must!) and more and more commoners find themselves with a stake in the southern system, and then this age will have drawn to an end--but then also, the two regions would have generations if not centuries of divergence under their belts and neither one can comfortably hold whatever they take from the other one without running into bewildering cultural conflicts that make the locals of the "liberated" or frankly conquered land partisans for their original side--in other words social feedback might stabilize a frontier that has found some kind of more or less territorially defensible boundaries, and these will eventually come to be accepted as the division of two countries.

If the Wessexian south is aggrandized by firm possession of the Thames and a march to the immediate north of that, and the North is aggrandized by incorporating at least some bits of Scotland, perhaps holdings farther north, and probably a foothold or set of them on northern Ireland, Isle of Man, etc, basically we have a greater Scotland versus a smaller England. Considering how well the Scots have managed to maintain a distinct identity despite all the advantages of size and wealth England brought to dominating the United Kingdom, I would think such a shift could maintain completely separate nations to the present day.
 
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