WI: Kublai Khan the Catholic

[QuoProQuid]

The arrival of Marco Polo and his family caused a great stir in Dadu, capital of the great Mongol Empire. It was the first time that a European had stepped foot in the Khan's court. Although Kublai and his advisers had heard many stories about Europe, they received a first had account in 1264. They were particularly interested in Western religion.

Stirred by these stories, Kublai Khan requested that the family return to Europe and deliver a message to the Pope. In order to learn more about the Europeans, Kublai Khan asked for one hundred missionaries acquainted in the Seven Arts to teach Western customs to his people.

However, the Polos arrived back in Europe during the longest period of sede vacante in history. It would take three more years before a new Pope could be elected. When the family was finally able to deliver the letter, Pope Gregory X gave the message very little priority and sent only two monks to the Khan's court. Both turned back almost immediately.

What if Pope Gregory had sent out a larger party and, miraculously, a significant portion of Kublai Khan's court, as well as Kublai himself had converted to Catholicism (or a bastardized version of it)?

 

[Spikey Wikey]

Without ASB helping the Khan to hold peace in China, I bet a bloody Chinese revolt will soon occur due to Catholic Mongol overlords start destroying Temples and Idols. The revolt was quelled with a very bloody and systematic genocide, and the rest of the Chinese are forced to convert or die.

The Mongols soon turn their eyes west to "help" their Christian brothers retake the Holy land from Muslim infidels. The Mongollian horde pour upon the Levant and finally capturing Jerusalem. But... aside of nominal de jure Papal administrations, bishops and priests here, all Levant are Mongol-ized.

The western European nobles just see all of this and got a WTF feelings about all of this. But they doesn't dare to attack the mongols because now the Catholic mongols never attack or raid Christian territories again... at least, for a gesture of friendship, they leave each others mostly alone and do trades as normal.

In a hundred years or two, soon the first Mongollian pope is elected

 

[FellowNerd]

Without ASB helping the Khan to hold peace in China, I bet a bloody Chinese revolt will soon occur due to Catholic Mongol overlords start destroying Temples and Idols. The revolt was quelled with a very bloody and systematic genocide, and the rest of the Chinese are forced to convert or die.

The Mongols soon turn their eyes west to "help" their Christian brothers retake the Holy land from Muslim infidels. The Mongollian horde pour upon the Levant and finally capturing Jerusalem. But... aside of nominal de jure Papal administrations, bishops and priests here, all Levant are Mongol-ized.

The western European nobles just see all of this and got a WTF feelings about all of this. But they doesn't dare to attack the mongols because now the Catholic mongols never attack or raid Christian territories again... at least, for a gesture of friendship, they leave each others mostly alone and do trades as normal.

In a hundred years or two, soon the first Mongollian pope is elected

I'm just imagining all of the European nobles faces at the thought of a catholic mongol horde in the Levant is sending me on the floor laughing

 

[QuoProQuid]

A civil war does seem likely. While Kublai's conversion may convince several of his tributary states to join with him, more ambitious leaders could see his religion as a way to move against the Khan. If the Khanate's neighbors are smart, they would use this time to try and take back lost lands.

The scattered Crusaders throughout the Levant did try to form an alliance with the Mongols. Bohemond of Antioch believed Kublai was the legend of Prester John realized. The Mongol Empire tried to profit off the sentiment by promising to reconquer Jerusalem in return for Europe's cooperation and profitable trade agreements. The alliance never really went anywhere due to difficulties in logistics and a lack of broad support in either party.

 

[eliphas8]

Without ASB helping the Khan to hold peace in China, I bet a bloody Chinese revolt will soon occur due to Catholic Mongol overlords start destroying Temples and Idols. The revolt was quelled with a very bloody and systematic genocide, and the rest of the Chinese are forced to convert or die.

The Mongols soon turn their eyes west to "help" their Christian brothers retake the Holy land from Muslim infidels. The Mongollian horde pour upon the Levant and finally capturing Jerusalem. But... aside of nominal de jure Papal administrations, bishops and priests here, all Levant are Mongol-ized.

The western European nobles just see all of this and got a WTF feelings about all of this. But they doesn't dare to attack the mongols because now the Catholic mongols never attack or raid Christian territories again... at least, for a gesture of friendship, they leave each others mostly alone and do trades as normal.

In a hundred years or two, soon the first Mongollian pope is elected

That kind of genocide early on would cripple the mongol state, they'd be economically ruined and they would likely lose to the Chineese rebellions against them, or if they won they would have ruined China for centuries to come and weakened themselves to the point where there empire would have collapsed.

 

[Rex Mundi]

It was the first time that a European had stepped foot in the Khan's court.

Not really, though.

 

[Blackfox5]

Without ASB helping the Khan to hold peace in China, I bet a bloody Chinese revolt will soon occur due to Catholic Mongol overlords start destroying Temples and Idols. The revolt was quelled with a very bloody and systematic genocide, and the rest of the Chinese are forced to convert or die.

If the Mongol leadership do convert, it's unlikely they'll be so politically naive as to go after the existing religious traditions of China. If China could accomodate Confucianism, Taosim, and Buddhism (not to mention lots of Muslims in the west and south) then they can balance Catholicism as well.

Certainly at some point we may see some tyrannical acts against one or more of the other religions, but not until Catholicism plants some deep roots.

 

[QuoProQuid]

Not really, though.

I'll admit that I included that to sound more dramatic. I have a source which claims the Polos were the first but it has little veracity. Do you know who the first Europeans to meet Kublai were?

 

[black_0]

I'll admit that I included that to sound more dramatic. I have a source which claims the Polos were the first but it has little veracity. Do you know who the first Europeans to meet Kublai were?

I don't know about Kublai but the earliest recorded Europeans at the court of Mongol Khan were Giovanni da Pian del Carpine and Benedict of Poland.

 

[Avitus]

If the Mongol leadership do convert, it's unlikely they'll be so politically naive as to go after the existing religious traditions of China. If China could accomodate Confucianism, Taosim, and Buddhism (not to mention lots of Muslims in the west and south) then they can balance Catholicism as well.

Certainly at some point we may see some tyrannical acts against one or more of the other religions, but not until Catholicism plants some deep roots.

This.
Converting doesn't instantly turn the Kahn into a genocidal idiot, and there is plenty of room to convert to Christianity without forcibly converting everyone around you. The most successful OTL example is obviously Constantine the Great, so following his example would probably be a good place to start for this to work. Offering benefits to the nobles and officials who convert while glossing over the more difficult teachings to follow (marriage to one woman especially, but I'm sure they can find a way to not enforce that one) is really the only way to go when you don't have significant grass root.

Of particular importance is to start preaching in the military. Constantine did it by saying that God had sanctioned his military conquests, so perhaps have Kublai attribute some significant military victory to God's intervention either before the battle or immediately after it, then we may see the soldiers begin to believe. Besides that, any faith that promises a heaven to the riteous is appealing to soldiers, so the military is definitely a good place to start looking for converts.

Converting the people may or may not ever come, and certainly wont within Kublai's lifetime, but with the other two pieces in place it mostly depends on how long Catholic rulers stay in charge. Constantine happened to have three sons who more or less shared his beliefs, and when someone (Julian of course) did try to go in a different religious direction his reign was short and he wasn't particularly popular. That Jovian and more importantly Valentinian were Christians pretty much sealed the empire's conversion, and although China in the 1300s was more populous than the Roman empire a thousand years prior, it probably wouldn't take too much longer for Catholicism to become a majority in China. So, 100-200 years of uninterrupted Catholic rule should most likely do it, but that is a difficult feat to achieve, especially given that the Yuan would be replaced before 1400 IOTL.

 

[QuoProQuid]

Here lies the problem for Kublai's (presumably Christian) heirs. The Great Khan is chosen from among Genghis Khan's descendants by a grand council of all subordinate Mongol states. This is known as the Kurultai. While Kublai's base of supporters in China would likely support his descendents, a wide-scale conversion such as the proposed in the opening post would throw the entire process into contest. I don't think Kublai Khan is going to be engaging in genocide, but his heirs practicing a foreign faith is going to make them less popular.

This may lead to an earlier disintegration of the Mongol Empire, with a Catholic royal court ruling over China and the Central Asian Khanates retaining their traditional faiths. Later interactions with Europe would be interesting.

Converting the people may or may not ever come, and certainly wont within Kublai's lifetime, but with the other two pieces in place it mostly depends on how long Catholic rulers stay in charge. Constantine happened to have three sons who more or less shared his beliefs, and when someone (Julian of course) did try to go in a different religious direction his reign was short and he wasn't particularly popular. That Jovian and more importantly Valentinian were Christians pretty much sealed the empire's conversion, and although China in the 1300s was more populous than the Roman empire a thousand years prior, it probably wouldn't take too much longer for Catholicism to become a majority in China. So, 100-200 years of uninterrupted Catholic rule should most likely do it, but that is a difficult feat to achieve, especially given that the Yuan would be replaced before 1400 IOTL.

 

[molave]

I'm just imagining all of the European nobles faces at the thought of a catholic mongol horde in the Levant is sending me on the floor laughing

They would think of Kublai as Prester John for a start, especially after he manages to capture Jerusalem.

 

[katchen]

Kublai Khan's biggest impact is not going to be in China (his successors will still be kicked out of China) but in Mongolia, to which the Mongols will retreat (if the Mongols are Catholics, they won't become Buddhists) and Russia. As a Catholic, Kublai will be greatly offended by his cousin Birkei's conversion to Islam. We can expect Kublai to mount a Crusade against Birkei and the Golden Horde to bring the Golden Horde to Roman Christianity. That will likely also involve Central Asia, including Bukhara, which could get quite bloody. Then, Birkei's vassals, the Russians, who are Orthodox Christians. Somewhere along the way, maybe Siberian tribes, all the way to the Arctic Ocean. Then Korea, where strangely, Christianity will be quite popular due to folk belief in the one God Hanmanim. (This has made Korea a very fertile mission territory, much to the bewilderment of Catholic and Protestant missionaries alike).
Only then, we might see Kublai in his latest years attempt to convert the IlKhans of Persia and Iraq and Syria to Christianity using the same tools of white tent, (peace and tribute) red tent (sacking the city ) black tent (killing every man, woman and child to make an example to others in the vicinity) that the Mongols are famous for.

 

[QuoProQuid]

They would think of Kublai as Prester John for a start, especially after he manages to capture Jerusalem.

The conquest of Jerusalem is far from a given. While his conversion may give Kublai more incentive to attack, it will not remove the logistics issue or the general lack of interest by the European powers. The Khanates were already periodically invading the Islamic Emirates with mixed success. In the immediate future, Kublai is likely going to be more concerned with putting down threats to his authority. (Coincidentally, this would be his best opportunity for a Constantine moment mentioned above.)

Kublai Khan's biggest impact is not going to be in China (his successors will still be kicked out of China) but in Mongolia, to which the Mongols will retreat (if the Mongols are Catholics, they won't become Buddhists) and Russia. As a Catholic, Kublai will be greatly offended by his cousin Birkei's conversion to Islam. We can expect Kublai to mount a Crusade against Birkei and the Golden Horde to bring the Golden Horde to Roman Christianity. That will likely also involve Central Asia, including Bukhara, which could get quite bloody. Then, Birkei's vassals, the Russians, who are Orthodox Christians. Somewhere along the way, maybe Siberian tribes, all the way to the Arctic Ocean. Then Korea, where strangely, Christianity will be quite popular due to folk belief in the one God Hanmanim. (This has made Korea a very fertile mission territory, much to the bewilderment of Catholic and Protestant missionaries alike).
Only then, we might see Kublai in his latest years attempt to convert the IlKhans of Persia and Iraq and Syria to Christianity using the same tools of white tent, (peace and tribute) red tent (sacking the city ) black tent (killing every man, woman and child to make an example to others in the vicinity) that the Mongols are famous for.

I will agree with you that Kublai will likely have his biggest impact up north in Manchuria, Mongolia and Korea but one hundred years of Catholic administration will probably still have an impact in China. If nothing else, there would probably be a Catholic minority around modern day Beijing. Whether they survive depends on the policies of Yuan's successors.

The Yuan Dynasty may also find a temporary ally with the Ilkhanate. Around this time, Iran was ruled by Arghun Khan, who pursued an alliance with the European powers and whose heirs relied on Christian administrators. Conversion would be politically expedient.

The Ilkhanate's location and demographics will probably force a conversion to Islam down the road.

 

[mrmandias]

Could this lead to earlier or more sustained contacts between Christendom and the far east then OTL? That might mean an earlier Black Plague. On the plus side, maybe earlier printing and other Chinese inventions make it earlier to Europe. Maybe some of the commentaries on Aristotle, maybe even the Summa, become part of the Chinese scholarly canon?


I don't really know if the imperial examinations and the idea of the scholarly mandarin class was alive and well during the Yuan period, but if so it would be interesting if some version of that became part of the package pushed by church reformers to get rid of simoniacs and hedge priests.

 

[Wendell]

This will have made the Crusades far more interesting. One wonders if we'd see a Confucian/Catholic hybrid in the long run in China/Mongolia. More urgently though are the considerations for getting this clerical party to Dadu. They'd need a small army one suspects, and with a small army comes the prospect for problems along the way.

 

[QuoProQuid]

Could this lead to earlier or more sustained contacts between Christendom and the far east then OTL? That might mean an earlier Black Plague. On the plus side, maybe earlier printing and other Chinese inventions make it earlier to Europe. Maybe some of the commentaries on Aristotle, maybe even the Summa, become part of the Chinese scholarly canon?


I don't really know if the imperial examinations and the idea of the scholarly mandarin class was alive and well during the Yuan period, but if so it would be interesting if some version of that became part of the package pushed by church reformers to get rid of simoniacs and hedge priests.

From my understanding, the scholarly-mandarin class was preserved by Kublai Khan and his successors. Their power grew toward the end of the Yuan dynasty to the point where the emperor became little more than a figurehead.

I think it would be an interesting innovation to bring back but would the Church actually adopt it on a wide scale? Would the feudal European powers accept it? It seems to me that the Papacy wouldn't reform unless they were forced to by a major catastrophe.

This will have made the Crusades far more interesting. One wonders if we'd see a Confucian/Catholic hybrid in the long run in China/Mongolia. More urgently though are the considerations for getting this clerical party to Dadu. They'd need a small army one suspects, and with a small army comes the prospect for problems along the way.

Well, there is this:

To make sure the brothers would be given every assistance on their travels, Kublai Khan presented them with a golden tablet (or paiza in Chinese, gerege in Mongolian) a foot long and three inches wide and inscribed with the words (Left Fig.): "By the strength of the eternal Heaven, holy be the Khan's name. Let him that pays him not reverence be killed." The golden tablet was the special VIP passport, authorizing the travelers to receive throughout the Great Khan's dominions such horses, lodging, food and guides as they required. It took the Polos three full years to return home, in April 1269.

 

[QuoProQuid]

Just one bump.

 

[MonAngel]

Converting Kublai and other Mongol princes converting to Catholic is really interesting effect in long term, but not short term.
Best thing would be maybe Muslims and Catholics will have better relationships. By this time Middle East is ruled by most likely Abaqa Khan. Maybe this would result alliance between Western Europeans and Il-Khanate.
We might see New Crusade which would participate both Europeans and Mongols. Maybe we might see Jerusalem will be domain of Pope?

Catholic Mongols will create Catholics in China same as Hui people. Maybe Yunnan will be majority Chinese Catholics? I doubt for Koreans.
But it is possible that Manchus would also converted to Catholic. Then we could see China again ruled by Catholics and maybe Qing Dynasty will be more open to Europeans.
When Qing collapse we might see Catholic Greater Mongol state and Catholic Manchu State.

 

[Wendell]

Jerusalem won't be the domain of the pope, but its Latin Patriarch might be far more important in a hypothetical Catholic-ruled "Syrian Khanate" or an enduring Kingdom of Jerusalem.