WI: Knowledge of Egyptian hieroglyphs preserved

[Magnum]

Suppose, when Justinian sends general Narses to shut down the last Ancient Egyptian temples at the Philae complex and imprison the pagans priests there, he also orders that they be brought to Constantinople, where Roman scholars use them to write down a comprehensive instruction manual of sorts on how to read Egyptian hieroglyphs.

This book then makes its way to Rome, which also had a bunch of obelisks some Bishop perhaps wished he could read, so that he may burnish his own credentials by combatting the ideas present on the ancient stones. Thus knowledge on Ancient Egyptian writing is preserved by the Papacy and is NOT later lost to some accident of history.

What kind of direct changes/butterflies (excepting the usual "everything obviously changes because you end up rolling the dice again on every subsequent decision in history") can we expect from this?

 

[Evil Crusader]

I would use a different POD. No prestige is gained by refuting a dead faith (or close to, as was Egyptian religion by then); nor would the Emperor have any incentive to preserve a dead writing used only for pagan rituals. And that is without keeping into account how the very last people who understood hieroglyphs likely only mastered a fraction, even if a large one, of the language; that most pertaining to worship.
For example, a better POD would be having some gifted Bishop of Alexandria do a large dissertation on the wrongs of "pagan" worship, complete with hieroglyphs that end up, unwittingly, as a preservation.

My impression is that there really isn't much change, save from that caused by wanton butterflies; the bigger impact probably is on Neoclassicism and ancient language studies, affected without the iconic rediscovery of hieroglyphs through the Rosetta Stone.

 

[garabik]

I would say a bit earlier POD is more likely, and the best path goes through Demotic. Let's say there are some late (2nd-3rd century AD) influential literary works in Demotic, perhaps a Bible translation? Not in the spirit of the period, but it takes just one highly motivated influential (and perhaps bilingual) Egyptian bishop. The Copts would just continue using Demotic, there is not much literature surviving (but there is some), there are going to be some scholars reading the script in Rome; and if the use of Demotic survives the onset of Islam, it might survive exactly because it is the script of the Christians (much like the Hebrew script survived in much harsher circumstances). Sometime in the beginning, someone writes a few pages compiling the comparison tables of Demotic, Hieratic and Hieroglyphic - and it survives. Of course, reading Old Egyptian if you speak and read Early Coptic and have just some passing knowledge of the hieroglyphs is next to impossible, but it is a good start, and much better than what Champollion had to work with...

 

[Clandango]

I would say try to have it be used to find the tombs of some biblical pharaohs, but they were not usually mentioned positively. If there were some biblical stories set in Egypt outside of Joseph and Moses (and the short period where Mary and Joseph took Jesus into Egypt, but that was only a footnote and certainly would not be mentioned in monuments) then maybe someone would go Indiana Jonesing. As it is... Really, who would care too much? I think most hieroglyphs would have been painted or carved into walls or huge statues. They didn’t have room to put in great details, and I doubt it would cover theology. Just stuff praising a pharaoh or giving a general praise, giving the name of a location, etc. I suppose you can have someone just wanting to collect all the info on the languages they could find, so as to compare to the Language of Adam and before Babel or something like that, but I doubt it would be a high priority. Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, Copt, Latin, those would be the things of interest to bishops and governors.

 

[America'sFuhrer]

I would use a different POD. No prestige is gained by refuting a dead faith (or close to, as was Egyptian religion by then); nor would the Emperor have any incentive to preserve a dead writing used only for pagan rituals. And that is without keeping into account how the very last people who understood hieroglyphs likely only mastered a fraction, even if a large one, of the language; that most pertaining to worship.
For example, a better POD would be having some gifted Bishop of Alexandria do a large dissertation on the wrongs of "pagan" worship, complete with hieroglyphs that end up, unwittingly, as a preservation.

My impression is that there really isn't much change, save from that caused by wanton butterflies; the bigger impact probably is on Neoclassicism and ancient language studies, affected without the iconic rediscovery of hieroglyphs through the Rosetta Stone.

Something like that could have been accomplished by Origen, and after his ideas were found heretical, his followers bury his complete library in the desert only to be found later on (basically a second Dead Sea Scrolls).

Origen was a native Egyptian and had a knowledge of Greek and Hebrew (which was also nearing on a dead language).

 

[Hearkener]

I would say try to have it be used to find the tombs of some biblical pharaohs, but they were not usually mentioned positively. If there were some biblical stories set in Egypt outside of Joseph and Moses (and the short period where Mary and Joseph took Jesus into Egypt, but that was only a footnote and certainly would not be mentioned in monuments) then maybe someone would go Indiana Jonesing. As it is... Really, who would care too much? I think most hieroglyphs would have been painted or carved into walls or huge statues. They didn’t have room to put in great details, and I doubt it would cover theology. Just stuff praising a pharaoh or giving a general praise, giving the name of a location, etc. I suppose you can have someone just wanting to collect all the info on the languages they could find, so as to compare to the Language of Adam and before Babel or something like that, but I doubt it would be a high priority. Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, Copt, Latin, those would be the things of interest to bishops and governors.

Imo a comprehensive overview of Hieratic and Demotic would probably be more useful than one of Hieroglyphs. At least then we might have more Greek, or lets face it, Arabic translations, because unlike the Byzantines, the Caliphates did have a developed interest in the pagan cultures that proceeded them.

But there are long theological texts in Hieroglyphs, notably what we call the Book of the Dead. However we should note that the Ancient Egyptian religion was more interested in Orthopraxy than Orthodoxy, so there aren't a lot of meditations on the nature of the divine or the proper meaning of faith like the ones Christian authors produced.

However I think the main problem is the Roman Christians' digust with and disinterest in paganism. They viewed these religions as sinful and didn't really engage with them on an equal level, in the same manner that modern states don't generally discuss the benefits of organized crime.

 

[Polish Eagle]

For example, a better POD would be having some gifted Bishop of Alexandria do a large dissertation on the wrongs of "pagan" worship, complete with hieroglyphs that end up, unwittingly, as a preservation.

Similar to how Bishop de Landa's writings on Maya language have proven useful more recently? An interesting approach--there certainly was a tradition of such apologetics at the time.

However I think the main problem is the Roman Christians' digust with and disinterest in paganism. They viewed these religions as sinful and didn't really engage with them on an equal level, in the same manner that modern states don't generally discuss the benefits of organized crime.

I don't think that's a fair assessment--the Byzantines did have a rather rich tradition of Hellenistic study for centuries.

The problem with applying this to Egypt is that you're not having Greeks study Greek culture, but a pagan culture that was already giving way to a dominant Greek system during Christ's own lifetime. Apologetics against the Egyptians would be almost pointless by then. I would almost suggest that, to salvage a knowledge of hieroglyphs, you would need an independent Egyptian Christian state to emerge and basically try some patriotism-building like Cleopatra attempted.

As to what effects it might have, it would, I think, vastly change the shape of Renaissance Hermeticism and other philosophies which claimed a link to Egypt. Though I wonder if increased interest in that would lead to an Islamic iconoclastic backlash--if you start seeing Italian scholars digging up tombs in the 16th century rather than Frenchmen and Englishmen in the 19th, would the Sultans have a fit of religious scruples akin to the one in Constantinople that resulted in the end of the Turkish miniature tradition?

 

[America'sFuhrer]

However I think the main problem is the Roman Christians' digust with and disinterest in paganism. They viewed these religions as sinful and didn't really engage with them on an equal level, in the same manner that modern states don't generally discuss the benefits of organized crime.

I will second Polish Eagle in saying that your assessment of the early Church (who would be the latest most likely candidate to be able to keep the knowledge of hieroglyphics in circulation) is an argument from ignorance. If you read any of the Christian authors at the time, they were extremely well-versed in paganism, be it mostly Hellenistic-flavoured. Although maybe not engaging with your run-of-the-mill pagan on the same level, most apologetics arguments merged attacking pagan beliefs while using Hellenistic philosophies.

The Alexandrian school of Christians, precursored by Philo (who is probably a better candidate for this scenario than a Christian Father, although the Church would end up being the ones continuing the text tradition from him), was at home with Hellenistic philosophy and paganism, Egyptian residual influence, and various Eastern mystery cults and schools.

 

[Nivek]

Imo a comprehensive overview of Hieratic and Demotic would probably be more useful than one of Hieroglyphs. At least then we might have more Greek, or lets face it, Arabic translations

Suppose, when Justinian sends general Narses to shut down the last Ancient Egyptian temples at the Philae complex and imprison the pagans priests there, he also orders that they be brought to Constantinople, where Roman scholars use them to write down a comprehensive instruction manual of sorts on how to read Egyptian hieroglyphs.

This book then makes its way to Rome, which also had a bunch of obelisks some Bishop perhaps wished he could read, so that he may burnish his own credentials by combatting the ideas present on the ancient stones. Thus knowledge on Ancient Egyptian writing is preserved by the Papacy and is NOT later lost to some accident of history.

What kind of direct changes/butterflies (excepting the usual "everything obviously changes because you end up rolling the dice again on every subsequent decision in history") can we expect from this?

Why no simply they found the Rosetta stone Early?

 

[Pangur]

Why no simply they found the Rosetta stone Early?

When is was found people had to be interested in trying to read Hieroglyphs for that work. Perhaps the idea that some Hieroglyphs some where held evidence to back up the bible would get the churches interested?

 

[Hearkener]

I don't think that's a fair assessment--the Byzantines did have a rather rich tradition of Hellenistic study for centuries.

I will second Polish Eagle in saying that your assessment of the early Church (who would be the latest most likely candidate to be able to keep the knowledge of hieroglyphics in circulation) is an argument from ignorance.

I will fully admit that my knowledge of the early ERE's religious policies is limited. But my impression from that was that they stopped arguing with the pagans around the time of Theodosius and went on to heavy persecution instead. Systematic destruction of temples and holy texts, pogroms against religious minorities, the prohibition of organized cults etc. I'm also not aware of any wide-spread interest in literature outside of the Graeco-Roman canon.

I'm open to have my mind changed here, but as I understand it, Rome became an extremely repressive and deeply incurious society during the migration period.

 

[Nivek]

When is was found people had to be interested in trying to read Hieroglyphs for that work. Perhaps the idea that some Hieroglyphs some where held evidence to back up the bible would get the churches interested?

Or People trying to tie the egyptian history with Abrahamic Mythos? Romans Or Muslims trying to figure who was the plague pharaoh?

 

[Pangur]

Or People trying to tie the egyptian history with Abrahamic Mythos? Romans Or Muslims trying to figure who was the plague pharaoh?

The plague idea crossed by mind after I had hit Post reply!

 

[raharris1973]

the Caliphates did have a developed interest in the pagan cultures that proceeded them.

they did?

 

[Nivek]

they did?

Looking up to the Sabians Demanded combing a lot of traditional rites to know who were pre-pseudo monotheist/monolatrist/Dhimmi and which one was Polytheist/Kafir.

 

[raharris1973]

Looking up to the Sabians Demanded combing a lot of traditional rites to know who were pre-pseudo monotheist/monolatrist/Dhimmi and which one was Polytheist/Kafir.

One learns something new every day. Thanks.