WI: King Arthur I of England.

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piratedude

piratedude

Well, among the many other things Arthur's continued survival would affect would be the Laws in Wales acts.

The marcher lordships are bound to be done away with, but other aspects of those laws could be dramatically different, like not requiring the use of the English language, and (mostly) retaining welsh law in civil cases.

I don't know how likely it is but maybe its possible that Wales is reorganized as a kingdom in personal union with england rather than just outright annexed?
 

Lalli

piratedude said:
Well, among the many other things Arthur's continued survival would affect would be the Laws in Wales acts.

The marcher lordships are bound to be done away with, but other aspects of those laws could be dramatically different, like not requiring the use of the English language, and (mostly) retaining welsh law in civil cases.

I don't know how likely it is but maybe its possible that Wales is reorganized as a kingdom in personal union with england rather than just outright annexed?
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Intresting. Would this too help Cornwall and Cornish language?
 

Madhukar_Shah

Lalli said:
Intresting. Would this too help Cornwall and Cornish language?
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If the council of Wales maintains the jurisdiction over Cornwall it apparently had in Henry 7ths day, I do wonder whether Welsh language catechisms/bible translations could end up being used there, which I'd assume would be... At least as intelligible as Latin in romance Europe.
 
SunZi

SunZi

With regard to religious reform, it's always difficult to gauge how much the sovereign's own personality, in this case Henry VIII, and what influence of the mistresses (in particular Anne Boleyn) really played for the birth of Anglicanism. But one can imagine that Arthur is faithful to the Church (by the influence of Kat) while "tolerating" the new ideas which can be represented by a figure such as Marguerite of Angoulême, sister of Francis I and surely wife of Henry of York (we can even imagine that Boleyn is a lady-in-waiting to the Duchess of York).
 
SunZi

SunZi

ordinarylittleme said:
Sister of the king of France is a bit too high for a second son no?
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Well the project isn't so capillotracted as it was discussed in OTL, although indeed when Henry became king after Arthur's death the project had more weight. However, Louis XII would be behind the maneuver because it serves his diplomacy in Italy, while Anne of Brittany, rival of Louise of Savoy, would be happy to deprive the princess of her daughter who serves as her political and matrimonial support in the court. . We must then put ourselves in the following context, between 1494 and 1515, Francis of Angoulême was "only" the heir presumptive of Louis XII and therefore of less importance in the eyes of the king, at least the latter treated him as that. So Marguerite is of subsidiary importance and is perfectly suited to Henry of York, or even would be perceived as a misalliance but there it would be capillotracted. In short, the marriage between the two must be between 1502 and 1515.
 

JennyB

If Katharine died of the sweating sickness instead of Arthur, who would be the most likely candidates for presumptive Queen?
 
HortenseMancini

HortenseMancini

JennyB said:
If Katharine died of the sweating sickness instead of Arthur, who would be the most likely candidates for presumptive Queen?
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Germaine of Foix, if Henry VII is inclined towards a French alliance, or one of Holy Roman Emperor Maximilian's Bavarian nieces (probably Sibylle since Sidonie was already betrothed)
 

isabella

ordinarylittleme said:
Sister of the king of France is a bit too high for a second son no?
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She is only a junior princess and a daughter of the (late) King’s cousin at the moment. Francis is only Louis’ heir presumptive and far to be secure to inherit (for better putting things in prospective Marguerite will be married around 1508 while Renee of France was born in 1510 and Anne of Brittany’s last pregnancy was in 1513 and if either of that pregnancies result in a surviving son Francis would NEVER be King) and Henry of York is likely a better match than her OTL one
 

Galba Otho Vitelius

As a another commentator put it, we know so little about Arthur's personality that in a timeline you can make him any sort of king you want him to be.

I have heard the Henry being destined for the church thing, but I doubt it. This was never done with any other second son of a king (Cardinal York doesn't count because the Old Pretender was not actually king). And there was a good reason for that, you need the second son to be available to become king himself and produce heirs if necessary, which it often is, as shown by Henry's own IOTL career.

However, there is an interesting issue here, in that what happens if the marriage between Arthur and Catherine also only produces daughters. Ironically, Henry's daughter Mary become sovereign Queen was what set the precedent that this could happen, but it was at a time when the English really had no choice. Edward IV's daughter, Elizabeth, was only Queen Consort, despite having a better claim to the throne than her husband.

There would be a critical difference between the situation of Arthur and Catherine only producing daughters, and that of Henry and Catherine only producing daughters. That is because ITTL it is unlikely Henry and whoever he married would also only produce daughters, so there would still be a valid route where the Tudor dynasty could continue in the male line. So at least in this situation the break with Rome would be unneeded, at least for dynastic reasons. The situation could wind up setting the reverse precedent of what happened in 1553, that women could not become sovereign rules as long as any close male relative was available.
 

isabella

ordinarylittleme said:
Which match? She had two husbands
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Naturally I was talking about Alençon as Marguerite would marry Henry instead of him

ordinarylittleme said:
I mean - Marguerite d'Angouleme (likeliest match for Henry of York) only produced a daughter IOTL....
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Because her first husband was sterile. Still she married Navarre when she was in her mid-30s and was able to have two children with him (the second one was a boy who lived 5/6 months, born when Marguerite was already 38 years old) so I doubt who she would have troubles in giving heirs of both sex to Henry
 
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