Some of them were although obviously Rome eventually declined and there were screwups as well.
WI: Julian the Apostate lived
- Thread starter Zebra Cakes
- Start date
I have. It's fiction, though. It's good historical fiction and seems to be accurate, but it's still fiction.
All states eventually decline, it ought to be noted. No state remains favored by fortune forever, and when that changes, the gap between resources and the demands on those resources means something happens.
I will just settle things and agree that it could have gone either way, while we we would not have seen a revival of the Roman Empire and Paganism throughout the Empire the most likely outcome would be another split in the West and East, Pagan and Christian, where the two sides during the late or following Julian's reign into a violent conflict ending with either side butchering the other, rather then fear mongering and religious segregation we saw OTL over a long period of time that saw the crushing of Paganism until its revival in the Renaissance and once again in Modern Times.
Paganism was revived in the Renaissance?
I'm applying to do my masters on Reformation Catholicism and I've never encountered such a thing...Paganism was revived in the Renaissance?
You may want to look at Hermeticism.
Now your stretching things. In what way was Hermeticism pagan?
Lets have some definitions here first.
How do you define pagan?
Its a broad term applied by Christians to the polytheists (meaning somethings akin to 'country bumkin' (or country dweller/ rustic)) of the Roman period.
Now by that standard, Hermeticism is not pagan. According to that wiki article, it transcends polytheism, monotheism, pantheism, etc etc.
Now I have read upon medieval alchemy, which did found a big part of hermeticism. Now, medieval alchemy did assume the existence of elementals, and others spirits (look at the works of Paracelsus) but I would not label them Pagan. It was a product of the Renaissance and earlier beliefs, that combined Christian theology with much older practices and beliefs. For example, the majority of Christians believed in spirits depending where they lived (like the Fey for instance) but did that make them Pagan...no. They were still Christian, they just lived in a world where the supernatural was omnipresent. The same applies to the late medieval alchemists. It was a form of mysticism combined with material manipulation.
Asserting that Hermeticism was a Pagan revival is being so broad as to be deliberately misleading.
Now if you state that Pagan is simply the other to Christianity which it later became, then you could say any other religious movement was pagan. Islam, Sikhism, Ba Hai, etc. Would I label those Pagan revivals (unless you ascribe to the absurd theory that Muslims worship a moon god)... no.
Don't worry, plenty of good old fashioned Neo Platonism and other Greek Philisophy Revivals during the Renaissance. from aforementioned to Epicureians and so forth. Though they were more concilliatory to create a Christian Pagan Humanist religion or way of thinking.
The beliefs that sprang up after the Renaissance had nothing to do with the paganism that preceded the church. Sure they were to some extent influenced by Plato and other greek philisophers but if you read Augustine you will see that so was the catholic church. Incidentally the same is true of the so called modern pagans their beliefs and practices have little or no similarity with the pagans of classical times who incidentally would have not called themselves pagan or even untill the rise of Christianity have considered themselves one religion.
You have no clue who you are talking to, I prefer Greco-Egyptian Reconstructionist Polytheist.
Well it probably has little to do with what Cleopatra or any other Greco-egyption believed. Oh sure a few of the names might be the same but apart from that it is essentially a modern religion with ancient names added for an exotic feel. (the same is true of many modern beliefs or practices for example from what I understand most of modern spiritualism was formed around the turn of the century and many "eastern" religions as practiced in the west are fairly recent. The link with an older belief is purely their because people seem to feel a religion lacks authenticy if it is not of a certain age.
A. Careful not to bash my religion.
B. No, while we do admit that their is no direct lineage connection it is very much the ancient religion in the modern sense, we Recons are known in the Pagan/Polytheist as Academics, we use sourcing from surviving accounts and do it as they did while maintaining it in the modern sense. Granted, the various brands of ancient polytheism were much more community oriented and many are solitaires, we adhere to the old religious practices and rituals (Thank the gods for Theoi.com), though again it is not a hierarchial or strict practice religion and their is much syncreticism and alot of room for one's own ways.
C. If you wish to take up a religious debate then go to Political Chat.
Again! Define Pagan.
In what WAY was the neoplatonist thought of the Catholic theologians PAGAN. It was a product of its day and would not exist in the form it had without Christianity. I mean for example, how are St. Augustine or S.T.A pagans.
To quote the Princess Bride; You keep using that word...
Such is perception, it depends who you ask. One would say we 'Pagans'are all united in one religion or thought but its really quite varied. One could say it was 'Pagan' because it combined or made use of Pre Christian philosophy, to me all religons are very syncretic.
Though don't getanyone started on Augustine, you know who he hung out with in his earlier years after all
Sorry I probally got a bit carried away and since I've never encountered the particular group you talk about I am probally not really qualified to comment. Back on topic if you want paganism to survive in Rome the only way to do it really is to persuade the Christians to be tollerant of it since I don't think the pagans can hold power for very long since they are outnumbered or nearly so and Christianity has been consistantly growing for almost 300 years and is unlikely to stop growing. Unfortunately (and I consider this the greates trgedy of the last 2000 years) the christian community is unlikely to tolerate paganism once they have power not least because it never tolerated them. (not that that justifies it)
Their is a lesson in this, namely Historians never always agree, and world history is not linear but goes ina cycle, at least concerning humans where we almosst always seem to start back where we began with one another. It would be funny if the EU united and continues its trend of secularism only for Neo-Paganism to overtake them.
Towards the original OP Julian could have done quite a few things but anything he would have done would not have lasted past the Roman Empire.
Such is perception, it depends who you ask. One would say we 'Pagans'are all united in one religion or thought but its really quite varied. One could say it was 'Pagan' because it combined or made use of Pre Christian philosophy, to me all religons are very syncretic.
Though don't getanyone started on Augustine, you know who he hung out with in his earlier years after all
You mean the guy raised a Christian, and then joined Manicheanism (noted to be a religion 200 years younger than Christianity and not Roman Paganism by any length) before reconverting to Christianity...
Agains,
I asked for your opinion, not all the varied explanations that can apply willy nilly.
Which one do you ascribe to.
Frankly speaking, Greek Philosophy stripped of its polytheistic and joined to medieval Catholicism works something like this.
GP - G = P P + C = PC ergo GP - G + C = PC
Greek 'pagan' platonic philosophy dropped the greek 'pagan" part and was instead added on to Christianity as an add-on.
If peoples can play around with monotheistic 'books religions' (and criticize them perhaps), so yours as well. If you play the game, expect it to be played fair for everyone.
No personal offence, okay?
I mean not in here, religious debate is not for Pre-1900s or the other main threads, except Political Chat.
NOW TO RIP YOUR HEAD OFF RARRRGGGGH!!!!!